RadioReference on Facebook   RadioReference on Twitter   RadioReference Blog
 

Go Back   The RadioReference.com Forums > Scanners and Receivers Forums > General Scanning Discussion

General Scanning Discussion For general questions not specific to a model of scanner or general discussion of use of a scanner. Location specific posts should be directed to the regional forums listed below.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2014, 2:16 PM
902's Avatar
902 902 is offline
Member
  Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Downsouthsomewhere
Posts: 1,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmckenna View Post
I installed an 800MHz NexEdge trunked system about 2 years ago. It's set up for narrow band. The analog 800MHz repeater we put in as a backup system was also set up as narrow band, even though it would do 25KHz channels. FCC and NPSPAC doesn't require 800MHz systems to be narrow band, but the writing is on the wall. Anyone installing new equipment should be thinking ahead.
EVERYONE needs to be thinking of more spectrum efficient technologies, not to mention more responsible use. I've seen some proposals for channelizing 800 MHz into 12.5 kHz centers, like NPSPAC, but really, rebanding made a big enough disaster out of 800. These additional channel centers, like 12.5 and 6.25 won't work if the adjacents don't narrowband to conform in their channelspace. There are also a lot of systems that have achieved 9.6 kbps equivalency within a 20 kHz channel for 19.2 kbps data.

Watch out, TETRA's coming. Some big systems going in up in the northeast. And, why not? it's only a known, working 4/TDMA (unlike the other 4/TDMA that seems to be plagued by "issues" everywhere it's been turned up).

Quarterwave - businesses are coordinated differently. They are more based on loading, so you will see several licensees with overlapping coverage and maybe even within the same community. It's more based on loading and there is no "protection" as there might be with public safety. No matter, because the FCC always defaults to anything that's within VHF and UHF and not FB8 as "shared use."

Jay911 - well, the segregation seems to work, but some areas have a large number of licensees who have migrated off LMR to cellular. Initially they moved to Nextel and then to other platforms. So, many business frequencies lie fallow. I believe IC protects service area for each of it's licensees. I'm still trying to figure out how they work. I am involved in several "HIA" objections that would have been workable solutions based on how spectrum is reused here, but because of the treaty, a minuscule amount of energy in a 50 km radius blocks using the entire frequency at any level above 5 W ERP and secondary status.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
        
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2014, 2:25 PM
Temporarily Banned
   
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The Appalachians - Next to the tent and campfire.
Posts: 729
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WB4CS View Post
Moral of the story, the only reason that there's a shortage of spectrum available is because it's not being utilized as efficiently as it could be.
I agree. 800 Mhz belongs in 800 Mhz terrain. VHF - High belongs in VHF terrain. If you need fifteen frequencies then please make the FCC request for Fifteen. But if you only need seven "sets" of frequencies, don't ask for Fifteen sets of frequencies and tie up allocations someone else can...or could have received. I am a witness, that from where I work : VHF- High is getting congested, and in some instances it should not occur.

An ajoining county - their Police uses VHF-High. The Officers in the jail....use UHF. Good sense and appropraition of radio use in my opinion. They only have the freqs that they need. Another ajoining county.....their radio system is the best around in my opinion. Someone "Up there" done it right. They have no dead spots and for about 50 - 60 miles around you can hear their broadcast loud and clear - both dispatch, mobiles and portables. Their radio system.....was money well spent.

I actually miss low band. I really miss it. It had few problems, it was clear to listen to, and it was real rare to have repeater issues. But the advantage of our transition to VHF-High was with all the "medical" calls we have, we have we don't have to have two radios - one for Fire and one for EMS ( .160 - .340 - .400 ).

One of the countys local departments had low band, but when they transmitted ( we all know what it is ) it was kicked out on VHF-High. They had the best of both worlds. Three freqs = 2 repeater and one simplex tac channel. They had their own radio system, not the county system, and it worked great. No frequency abuse, no band abuse.

My area left low band....and in my belief, we did not have to. But VHF - High at the time was the "new thing" so alas that is what occurred. We were supposed to go digital ( ?? 1993 , 1994 ??? ) but that never occurred. Study after study found that we did not need 800 Mhz here in the "Mountains" of Appalachia ( You think ) and it was....at the time...not compatable with communicating with any ajoining agency. Politicans and some Public Safety Folks wanted 800 Mhz, but it was written in black and white " You can go 800 Mhz, but you would be crazy to do it". Plus the terrain does not support 800 Mhz, let alone digital.

With "Some" money left over - the VHF - High backbone system was installed, mobiles, handhelds and other essentials were soon issued. VHF-High was favored by alot of us, and the "800 Mhz fanatics" soon "Jumped on board" and seen the error of their ways.

Everyone was in awe, and the only thing the handhelds were.....was that they were was the same radios.....but on a different band.

I don't dislike VHF - High. But of the two bands..... for where I am at - My druthers is for VHF - Low. I believe the UHF band is King of radio bands , although it lacks the terrific propagation of Low band. My opinion of UHF being the King of radio bands will get some criticism and arguments...but UHF has proven itself time and time again. And VHF- Low has been used by the Military for years - with great success as I have personally witnessed. I use to be able to talk for miles on VHF - Low , from a Chevy truck. Simplex to I might add. I use to set in my grandfathers chair and listen to his scanner on "Search Mode" and hear radio traffic as far away as California on "low band", and I am just a "Fer Piece " east of the Mississippi , and near the Ohio River.

Radio Skip - of a night - on low band - from California. I was in Awe. I logged it down in my log book...and if I am not mistaken....I still have it somewhere. I use to love just "Searchinig the bands" to see what I could pick up. Police - State Police - Industrial - Pagers. I logged them all. But back then ( early 90's ) it was hard to track down, or do a frequency search.

I need to find more time for the "scanning " hobby. I usually go camping ( although it has been some time - scanning and camping ) on top of a hill, and "search the bands", listen to MILAIR and relax. I take five or six beers ( three beers in one gallon "Glad bags" of ice - I usually take 2 bags x 3 beers a piece ), chewing tobacco and relax. Drink a six pack of beer and chew tobaaco over about six hours....or so, and just relax and enjoy myself by the campfire. Tent ( or lean-to ), Handgun, Backpack , Campfire, Chewing Tobacco and ect..ect ---> is my own personal "get-a-way" from the rat race.

I like "scanning" of a night as the radio signals are much more clearer and distinct. For those of you who do not know - radio signals travel farther of a night than of a day.

FF - Medic !!!

Last edited by ff-medic; 04-25-2014 at 3:44 PM.. Reason: typographical errors - clarification
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:38 PM
Temporarily Banned
   
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The Appalachians - Next to the tent and campfire.
Posts: 729
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay911 View Post
Hmm. I'm not sure that allowing non-PS licensees into PS dedicated chunks of spectrum is the right solution for anything
It is not....I agree with you ( Do not allow non Public Safety licenses into the Public Safety Pool ). Especially school buses and tow trucks just to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay911 View Post
It's better to keep the bands separated IMO. It will eliminate congestion (but it may take some time to realize the full benefits on the non-PS side).
Congestion elimination should be a key concern. Fire Departments - Search and Rescue - Volunteer EMS agencies - Campus / College Police...... "start up" almost every day. They need to communicate. Can't talk on a radio if the band is already congested, and I know for a fact that when you get a business license for a Public Safety organization ( where I use to work, one of our freqs was on the business band ), you can get "skip". We all the time got verbal - voice "Pager Skip" on the mobile radios...and the frequencies had a P.L. ( transmit and receive P.L. ).

FF - Medic !!!
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:59 PM
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wichita Falls, TX
Posts: 4,277
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ff-medic View Post
Do not allow non Public Safety licenses into the Public Safety Pool ). Especially school buses and tow trucks just to begin with.
School buses are one of the types of entities eligible for Public Safety Pool frequencies. See eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2014, 4:01 PM
902's Avatar
902 902 is offline
Member
  Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Downsouthsomewhere
Posts: 1,557
Default

I have to say that there is a very big difference between being a scanner listener and being a public safety user, though. As a scanner listener (and as a young volunteer firefighter in NJ), I wanted to listen to departments from far away to hear new and interesting things, and I wanted to hear my department from far away so I would know what's going on in town. But all of that energy is going where it's not needed and as a consequence, not all of it was going into the streets and buildings in town. And, we weren't the only ones who had a "screaming" system. Some people in Pennsylvania, maybe 50 air miles away, turned up a repeater that sent all of their mobile and base traffic at us, covering our fireground portable transmissions in town. We weren't the only ones. Then I went to work in EMS, where an urban EMS system used VHF simplex on one of those frequencies with school buses and wheelchair services on it. Seems they were all way stronger than we were allowed to be, and at one point, people nearly got killed because their mayday call was stomped on by another user on a different CTCSS tone.

Here's how to stop congestion: design the radio system so that it's strong and reliable within the jurisdiction that needs it, along with an 8 km buffer area around the jurisdiction, then falls off in signal strength to the point that the frequency can be reused again. The energy could be focused where it's needed. The problem with that is that the antenna systems can't be put super high and sometimes things like simulcast have to be used to achieve the coverage needed.

Trunk systems that need more than 4 channel pairs. Certainly if there's a county agency that goes home after 5, maybe their system can double as something for the Sheriff on Friday and Saturday nights, when their channel gets overloaded.

In places where it's "impossible" to get spectrum, look at very narrow FDMA, like NXDN. It might be able to be slipped into the middle of existing systems - and they'd never be affected, unlike wider bandwidth signals which might interfere. Unfortunately, the "equivalency" criteria of TDMA (like DMR or P25 phase 2) really doesn't address the lack of available bandwidths in very congested places.

There's lots of things that can be done. We're not going to get more spectrum. That's for sure. And at some point, some politician might say, well, we'll take your existing spectrum and auction it, then you can use radio apps over smartphones to communicate.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2014, 4:06 PM
902's Avatar
902 902 is offline
Member
  Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Downsouthsomewhere
Posts: 1,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nd5y View Post
School buses are one of the types of entities eligible for Public Safety Pool frequencies. See eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations
And golf courses, and school safety, and hospitals, and veterinarians, and dentists, and handicapped people, and telephone companies, and a number of other interests. Look at 47 C.F.R. 90.20(a). There is a movement to now include critical infrastructure folks (pipelines, electric utilities, etc.) in some of the categories, too, especially for 4.9 GHz, which was (still is, at the moment) an exclusively public safety band.
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2014, 4:19 PM
n5ims's Avatar
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,974
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmclam View Post
Let's face it, the spectrum is not really all that well managed. Most of it from 54MHz to 900MHz was originally given to TV & FM broadcasting, with a section for government use. Because TV uses so much of it, they've reclaimed it in pieces (channels 70-83, then 52 to 69, and now more).

Part of the answer is that certain bands are good for some things, and not good for others. These days everyone wants their hand-held device to use tons of bandwidth (to receive video, etc) and not be carrying around a 'huge' antenna. So the higher frequencies work better.

My problem with the spectrum use is that there are lots of government agencies 'sitting' on frequencies that they are not using. When you add up all the pieces, it adds up to quite a bit.
You're pretty close to being dead on. One thing you missed was from real long ago. Where did the allocation come from for the VHF-Low band? TV channel 1. Almost nobody was on channel 1 due to the fact that it was very difficult to match a 6 MHz wide transmission at those frequencies (the SWR at the band edges was way different than at the middle for one thing). You didn't think that they planned to start the TV channels at 2 did you? Nope, channel 1 just didn't work out as planned so they dropped it and moved on.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2014, 5:13 PM
scannermanner1's Avatar
Member
   
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: In the Western US Mountains
Posts: 320
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ff-medic View Post
I agree. 800 Mhz belongs in 800 Mhz terrain. VHF - High belongs in VHF terrain. If you need fifteen frequencies then please make the FCC request for Fifteen. But if you only need seven "sets" of frequencies, don't ask for Fifteen sets of frequencies and tie up allocations someone else can...or could have received. I am a witness, that from where I work : VHF- High is getting congested, and in some instances it should not occur.

An ajoining county - their Police uses VHF-High. The Officers in the jail....use UHF. Good sense and appropraition of radio use in my opinion. They only have the freqs that they need. Another ajoining county.....their radio system is the best around in my opinion. Someone "Up there" done it right. They have no dead spots and for about 50 - 60 miles around you can hear their broadcast loud and clear - both dispatch, mobiles and portables. Their radio system.....was money well spent.

I actually miss low band. I really miss it. It had few problems, it was clear to listen to, and it was real rare to have repeater issues. But the advantage of our transition to VHF-High was with all the "medical" calls we have, we have we don't have to have two radios - one for Fire and one for EMS ( .160 - .340 - .400 ).

One of the countys local departments had low band, but when they transmitted ( we all know what it is ) it was kicked out on VHF-High. They had the best of both worlds. Three freqs = 2 repeater and one simplex tac channel. They had their own radio system, not the county system, and it worked great. No frequency abuse, no band abuse.

My area left low band....and in my belief, we did not have to. But VHF - High at the time was the "new thing" so alas that is what occurred. We were supposed to go digital ( ?? 1993 , 1994 ??? ) but that never occurred. Study after study found that we did not need 800 Mhz here in the "Mountains" of Appalachia ( You think ) and it was....at the time...not compatable with communicating with any ajoining agency. Politicans and some Public Safety Folks wanted 800 Mhz, but it was written in black and white " You can go 800 Mhz, but you would be crazy to do it". Plus the terrain does not support 800 Mhz, let alone digital.

With "Some" money left over - the VHF - High backbone system was installed, mobiles, handhelds and other essentials were soon issued. VHF-High was favored by alot of us, and the "800 Mhz fanatics" soon "Jumped on board" and seen the error of their ways.

Everyone was in awe, and the only thing the handhelds were.....was that they were was the same radios.....but on a different band.

I don't dislike VHF - High. But of the two bands..... for where I am at - My druthers is for VHF - Low. I believe the UHF band is King of radio bands , although it lacks the terrific propagation of Low band. My opinion of UHF being the King of radio bands will get some criticism and arguments...but UHF has proven itself time and time again. And VHF- Low has been used by the Military for years - with great success as I have personally witnessed. I use to be able to talk for miles on VHF - Low , from a Chevy truck. Simplex to I might add. I use to set in my grandfathers chair and listen to his scanner on "Search Mode" and hear radio traffic as far away as California on "low band", and I am just a "Fer Piece " east of the Mississippi , and near the Ohio River.

Radio Skip - of a night - on low band - from California. I was in Awe. I logged it down in my log book...and if I am not mistaken....I still have it somewhere. I use to love just "Searchinig the bands" to see what I could pick up. Police - State Police - Industrial - Pagers. I logged them all. But back then ( early 90's ) it was hard to track down, or do a frequency search.

I need to find more time for the "scanning " hobby. I usually go camping ( although it has been some time - scanning and camping ) on top of a hill, and "search the bands", listen to MILAIR and relax. I take five or six beers ( three beers in one gallon "Glad bags" of ice - I usually take 2 bags x 3 beers a piece ), chewing tobacco and relax. Drink a six pack of beer and chew tobaaco over about six hours....or so, and just relax and enjoy myself by the campfire. Tent ( or lean-to ), Handgun, Backpack , Campfire, Chewing Tobacco and ect..ect ---> is my own personal "get-a-way" from the rat race.

I like "scanning" of a night as the radio signals are much more clearer and distinct. For those of you who do not know - radio signals travel farther of a night than of a day.

FF - Medic !!!



I agree 100% with FF-Medic !!! You hit the nail on the head !
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2014, 5:26 PM
Temporarily Banned
   
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The Appalachians - Next to the tent and campfire.
Posts: 729
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nd5y View Post
School buses are one of the types of entities eligible for Public Safety Pool frequencies. See eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations
I know that. I know of a county system that "Was" on ?? 155 mhz ?? - public safety. Business or local government to the best.

FCC as I understand has some problems. Maybe who gets on what band should be looked at, as well as regional frequency assignements.

FF - Medic !!!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2014, 5:42 PM
Temporarily Banned
   
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The Appalachians - Next to the tent and campfire.
Posts: 729
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scannermanner1 View Post
I agree 100% with FF-Medic !!! You hit the nail on the head !
When I started out in the Fire Service, I use to keep a log, and I would document a brief summary of ALL my calls. I started out in the Fire Service - volunteer , and I estimate that I ran 85% or better of all the calls for the first three or four years I was a volunteer. After I started Paramedic School......well Medic School and working full time + Marriage.....it was all hectic ; and my response numbers went down hill from there. Structure Fires - General Medical Calls - Car Fires - Car Accidents - EMS assists - Cardiac Arrest - Diabetes - Entrapments.....I ran the largest part of them.

Radio "searching the bands". Same thing. I kept a logbook. Radio freq - time and date heard, and any specicifics I could hear. I kept a log to cross reference, or to look back on for research, or to determine an assignment ( agency / company / entity ) as to who was whom. One State Police agency....normally on "Low band" ; I found out by "Band Searching", that after the sun went down, they went to UHF Duplex. I smiled to myself = "Ah-ha...I got you." Sneaky Troopers they were. Setting in my Grandfathers recliner, watching "LAPD - Life on the Streets" late of a night , and "Searching" the bands.

Still at my current job, and I keep notations and schedules in a pocket calendar, and I have calendars for the past .....ahhh, I am thinking sixteen years. My last job I have all the pocket calendars for, and my current job I have pocket calendars for ( past 13 years ), with schedules and notations ( signing for narcotics - my first diabetic case as a Medic - Overtime worked - units and locations worked - and other general notations ). I even keep a wall calendar in my kitchen.......with information documetned on it. I guess that since 1992 or 1993...there abouts, I have been documentation happy.

Camping - "Scanning" - fishing , and small game hunting ; seem to be my hobbies. And I would not change a one.

FF - Medic !!!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 3:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
All information here is Copyright 2012 by RadioReference.com LLC and Lindsay C. Blanton III.Ad Management by RedTyger
Copyright 2011 by RadioReference.com LLC Privacy Policy  |  Terms and Conditions