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General Scanning Discussion - For general questions not specific to a model of scanner or general discussion of use of a scanner. Manufacturer specific posts should be directed to the appropriate forums below and location specific posts should go in the appropriate regional forum..

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2016, 6:09 PM
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Default DMR is no replacement!

I monitor the forums here everyday for years and what I see happening is this:
More and more agencies all over the country are encrypting their transmissions.
This means no matter what scanner you buy you are losing your favorite channels day by day.
Soon enough there will be so little Police, Fire, EMT etc. in the clear that our hobby will come to a close.
The big radio manufacturers like uniden and whistler are trying to combat this by offering DMR uodates.
This is just a ploy to stall the slow demise of our hobby.
The sudden new ability to monitor such exciting agencies like car services, oil companies, public utilities,
garbage trucks etc will never over ride the fact that once a channels encrypts we can never hear it again.
So lets stop talking about DMR as if it will save our hobby.
Technology has finally screwed us all.
any comments?
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Old 08-26-2016, 6:47 PM
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Some agencies do intend to stay in the clear on regular dispatch.
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Old 08-26-2016, 6:55 PM
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Someone or some group should be fighting encryption of police, fire and EMS as they are all public services paid for with our (public) tax dollars. I think is it our right to hear and listen in on what is being said with these transmissions. I don't think we should be kept in the dark!

I don't care about DMR- I don't want to listen to the hotel bell hop, room service, maid, groundskeeper, etc,
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Old 08-26-2016, 7:10 PM
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Default The Sky's not falling

Quote:
Originally Posted by minasha View Post
I monitor the forums here everyday for years and what I see happening is this:
More and more agencies all over the country are encrypting their transmissions.
This means no matter what scanner you buy you are losing your favorite channels day by day.
Soon enough there will be so little Police, Fire, EMT etc. in the clear that our hobby will come to a close.
The big radio manufacturers like uniden and whistler are trying to combat this by offering DMR uodates.
This is just a ploy to stall the slow demise of our hobby.
The sudden new ability to monitor such exciting agencies like car services, oil companies, public utilities,
garbage trucks etc will never over ride the fact that once a channels encrypts we can never hear it again.
So lets stop talking about DMR as if it will save our hobby.
Technology has finally screwed us all.
any comments?
Sorry to hear about your encryption issue. But that's not the case where I live in North East Ohio. There's very little encryption in use. Where it is in use, it makes very good sense. SWAT, Bomb Squads, special investigation details. That's it.

Regarding DMR, it is a nice addition. In fact one of the smaller local PD's moved to DMR a few years ago. I can now monitor them, again.

So no doom or gloom here.
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Old 08-26-2016, 7:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonefishn1 View Post
I don't care about DMR- I don't want to listen to the hotel bell hop, room service, maid, groundskeeper, etc,
If there is an incident at the hotel, you will have another outlet for information. I had this very situation tonight. The local community college had a fire. Not only did I have info from the county fire services, but also from college security and maintenance which are DMR.

You can get valuable information by monitoring businesses in your area, and some of what you may hear can be down right funny.
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Old 08-26-2016, 7:57 PM
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Hello.

Ive been a Premium member on here for a number of years plus I originally joined this site some 10 years ago and I AGREE completely that the public radio frequency spectrum shpuld in the clear except for real sensitive information. But unfortunately theres Administrators and Moderators on here that will scold you because they think that stating ones opinion against the use of encryption is a dead horse. To which I think "Never say never". There an unwritten law or "whatever" that says decryption is illegal and until more government officials who have the same mindset as myself and lots of other scanner owners do, nothing will change. More public money will be wasted....Ive been in the scanner hobby now for 26 years...Ive owned around 19 scanners altogether but the only monitor with now is the BCD536hp with all of the paid and free firmware upgrades I think.

Sheldon.
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Old 08-26-2016, 8:02 PM
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I missed a few words in my last post sorry.

Sheldon.
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Old 08-26-2016, 8:03 PM
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Some areas will use full or partial encryption. Others will not use it at all. Depends where your at, and other factors. So it will never be over. Now the worry is when voice is at a full LTE firstnet level on ptt devices running on that rather your today's normal talkgroups and frequencies and not patched to them using LTE ptt firstnet. It's coming and being more developed as time goes. But same will apply. Not everyone will use it, others partial some fully. I should edit and add that LTE voice on firstnet will not be monitorable unless it is patched to a talkgroup or frequency for other users to hear. Seen the demos and information regarding it. Motorola won our states contract and multiple agencies who plan to use firstnet for data and video, pictures but some are considering how easy and simple ptt devices over many types of devices. You sign in your device into the network and ptt away. It can be straight LTE voice that is secured non monitorable or patched into talkgroups or frequencies where it can be.

Last edited by LosRio; 08-26-2016 at 8:10 PM..
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Old 08-26-2016, 8:25 PM
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Default DMR

As long as our government is willing to have hidden transactions such as the money that went to Iran, encryption is never going to be considered as a serious freedom issue. There are good reasons for it as already posted, but paranoia of local government will find a way to justify it for everything else.
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Old 08-26-2016, 9:04 PM
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I see encryption creeping in all over, and it is only a matter of time until they all fall for the salesman's pitch and buy into it.

What I see happening in the near future is the scanning hobby will migrate to software so encryption can be decoded. The scanner manufacturers will go the way of Radio Shack.

But then again, what the heck do I know? When I was in High School, I said that music will be on a chip that you plug into your car and listen to it that way - that was back when 8-Tracks and computer punch cards were around. They gave me every opposing argument known as to why it would not happen, but it happened anyway.

I'm sure analog will always be around, but the future of scanning will be on your computer with special software, I guarantee it.
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Old 08-26-2016, 9:18 PM
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Default Enjoy the hobby

Ive also have been reading the threads and watching this forum for years. I kind of get where your coming from, but all I can say is that I personnally am going to enjoy the stations that are in the clear while it lasts. Ive been in the hobby since 1985 and have loved monitoring public service agencies ever since. It was easier years ago as everything was analog, and it was just us "scanner guys and gals" with physical radios who listened in mostly at home where no one seen or heard us listening in. Today its mostly digital and readily available to anyone with a smartphone. I am fortunate enough that our agencies are 98% or greater in the clear statewide and I am thankful for that. Interestingly, Sheriffs are elected by the county people and if you voice your concerns to him or her there is a good chance that they would listen; mine did. Our sheriff keeps the dispatch channels in the clear and only has one secured channel for for the patrol groups (not including SWAT or SRT etc...). Cheers!
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Old 08-26-2016, 9:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NC1 View Post
What I see happening in the near future is the scanning hobby will migrate to software so encryption can be decoded.
Gee, another soothsayer claiming we'll be cracking AES256 on our pee cees. And in the near future, no less!
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Old 08-26-2016, 9:36 PM
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Default Dmnr encryption

NC1, the good news is that your computer will probably be smaller than today's scanner.
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Old 08-26-2016, 9:55 PM
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Gee, another soothsayer claiming we'll be cracking AES256 on our pee cees. And in the near future, no less!
If the Pentagon can be hacked, AES256 most likely already has been. It's just not well publicized, not yet anyway.
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:03 PM
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Yeah, AES, an open standard that has been studied by security researchers all over the world, has been "hacked". I guess that's what we get when one conflates a high quality standard with "the Pentagon".

And surely this means that the much older DES standard was hacked and cracked many times over in its 40 year life, yes? Strange how no-one can point to a single incident.

BTW, pretty cocky, presenting yourself as more insightful than a real expert: Bruce Schneier, a developer of the competing algorithm Twofish, wrote that while he thought successful academic attacks on Rijndael would be developed someday, he does not "believe that anyone will ever discover an attack that will allow someone to read Rijndael traffic."
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:12 PM
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I love having DMR in my scanner. I hear several police departments I'd lost. The audio of MotoTRBO is strong & clear.
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Old 08-27-2016, 1:43 AM
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To some people, everything is a conspiracy. LOL.
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Old 08-27-2016, 5:36 AM
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I hold a General class amateur radio license; became a ham in 1995. I've been listening to public safety radio since I was 12 yrs old; I'll be 60 in Nov. My dad helped to manage a beach in Cecil Co MD in late 60's thru the 70's and was a deputized Sheriff. I grew up around public safety comms all my life; at the beach when there was an incident, many of the campers had cb radios as well as scanners. When my dad got a call for the beach he got many tips and help from the campers. Unfortunetly, the police and county commissioners don't realize how many ears and eyes they are losing by using encryption. I live in Berks Co PA which went to a Phase 2 system in Oct 2014. The Co PD are fully encrypted; however, when a full scale incident takes place involving the PA State PD, who don't have Berks radios, or outside Co agencies; Berks has to patch them to legacy freqs; usually Natl or the VHF/UHF analog tac channels. Also, the medevacs travel to so many different Counties that they also get patched thru to legacy freqs. I don't see encryption as an end to the hobby at all - it's too expensive for alot of large law enforcement agencies to use full time encryption. The PA State PD still uses the old VHF freqs and the new 700MHz a/g system for alot of comms because the "wonderful" Open Sky radio system has too many dead spots here in Berks Co. Those of you that listen to the Fed freqs, I'm sure you've noticed the increasing use of clear comms because they even have trouble with their encryption not working; and the a/c hardly ever use encryption. So, I think there will be alot of unencrypted comms to listen to in the future. One of the greatest ways I've gained respect for the police is by listening to their calls and hearing what type of dangerous situations they face. Whenever there is a local newspaper account of the PD wanting to get the public to know them better; I try to write a letter to the editor to get published in the paper explaining why being able to listen in on PD calls is a great way to get the public to help and understand what the PD are up against.
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Old 08-27-2016, 6:17 AM
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Richard Kramer stated (in part)

" Those of you that listen to the Fed freqs, I'm sure you've noticed the increasing use of clear comms because they even have trouble with their encryption not working; and the a/c hardly ever use encryption. So, I think there will be alot of unencrypted comms to listen to in the future."

I have one scanner monitoring Feds in the greater Philadelphia area which sits mostly silent. So more often than not, I just turn it off.

Amp
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Old 08-27-2016, 7:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slicerwizard View Post
Yeah, AES, an open standard that has been studied by security researchers all over the world, has been "hacked". I guess that's what we get when one conflates a high quality standard with "the Pentagon".

And surely this means that the much older DES standard was hacked and cracked many times over in its 40 year life, yes? Strange how no-one can point to a single incident.

BTW, pretty cocky, presenting yourself as more insightful than a real expert: Bruce Schneier, a developer of the competing algorithm Twofish, wrote that while he thought successful academic attacks on Rijndael would be developed someday, he does not "believe that anyone will ever discover an attack that will allow someone to read Rijndael traffic."
If it can be coded, then it can be cracked. It's a simple concept. Things are reverse-engineered all the time.

Nobody can say with 100% certainty that they can't be hacked - and like I said, just because a hack has not been publicized, it does not mean it hasn't. Some people don't have to be in the limelight and are able to keep things to themselves.

Once you announce you cracked something, moves will be made to make a more secure communication and you just screwed yourself. But if you keep quiet about it, then you can listen all you want. Which one would YOU do? I would not tell a single person about it because you can't control where it goes from there.
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