Shuffled Band Plan

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DickH

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This was posted by Lou Maag in another thread (thanks Lou) and it poses a serious complication in the re-banding program.

Quote from the Motorola 800 MHz Rebanding Subscriber Guidelines document:
"4.7 Shuffled Band Plan
Radios that have been upgraded to be Rebanding capable are also capable of supporting the Shuffled Band Plan. The Shuffled band plan is intended to help prevent unauthorized system monitoring and access on Shuffled Band Plan enabled systems. Shuffled Band Plan shuffles all trunking numbered-channels allowed in the band plan.
Note that Shuffled Band Plan can only be enabled by the Rebanding Capable CPS program with an appropriate Advanced System Key per Trunking System. This feature is designed and implemented for Motorola 3600 Type II Trunking systems. "

As I recall, back in March, I found out that Motorola had releaed their new software to implement re-banding. A very short sentence in that information said something about the band plan could be changed by the user. That must be the Shuffled Band Plan. At the time, it didn't mean much to me, but since reading the above quote I think it could be a huge problem for us. How can Uniden and GRE provide a new band plan when it could be different for every system? Think about it and let's hope I'm wrong.
 

Stick0413

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I am sure someone will eventually come up with something to monitor them (especiall if the "channel shuffle" is a standard on all systems (i.e. channel 1 will be channel 1 on all 800 systems). What gets me is if I can figure out all of the frequencies. I might not know the channel number but I will know the frequencies. If nothing else I can program a system with all of the frequencies (minus maybe the control channel) and just program in the talkgroup I want to listen to. Guess what I can listen. So I don't see how it truely "prevents unauthorized system monitoring," it may make it harder but it doesn't prevent it. With programs like Pro96Com bringing 3600 system info (not yet but soon) it might even help with trunking tables. So if that figures it out then thats all you need. Like I said though if worse comes to worse you can either monitor mutiple talkgroups and not be able to stick to one or you could program one with all the frequencies and monitor just that talkgroup. With scanners like the PSR-500/600 and the BCD996T/396T you have a ton of space you can do this with. Might not be able to outright store everything you would be able to otherwise but you could store a lot and just have to reprogram (switch to another V-Folder on the GREs).

Edit: and if I remember correctly Pro96Com gives channel numbers on 9600 systems so if it does the same on the 3600 (and all systems are common) then they could do some form of firmware upgrade. If they are not commonly shuffled then they could do a firmware upgrade where you could assign the frequencies a "channel number." On the later if they couldn't firmware upgrade the later I am sure they could produce a scanner that would be able to do that.
 
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mancow

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I don't understand your thinking here. How do you propose to program in just voice channels and listen to just one talk-group? What is the mechanism that would allow you to follow the conversation? If the radio doesn't know what channel to tune to then it's the same as scanning with a conventional receiver isn't it?

Scanners with tables that can be edited are still dependant on a linear channel/step assignment. If it's all scrambled up and only the Moto radios know what any given channel translates to then nothing can track it.
 

Stick0413

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I got you on the first part. Still we could listen just again it would be harder (the bigger the system the harder it would be) but on the later, it says nothing about being scrambled and/or encrypted. I think it would be the same data we recieve on Pro96Com. Even on 9000 systems that are partially or totally encrypeted we can still derive the info off of the program. The voice is encrypted but not the data.
 

Stick0413

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Another part I don't understand. If this is actually a part of the Mot release is that it says it Prevents Unauthorized Monitoring. It doesn't prevent it, only makes it harder at the worst. On smaller systems (like the main one i listen to, which doesn't have to be rebanded in the first place) it would not make much difference at all. The only thing that PREVENTS unauthorized monitoring is a system that we can't monitor at all (i.e. ProVoice, Open Sky, etc.) or encryption. Personally if this is the Mot release I think it is very decieving to the operators of these systems to say it prevents monitoring rather than saying it makes it more difficult.
 
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mancow

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I see what you are saying and I agree.

I guess if they started making scanners with totally edit capable trunking tables then it would theoretically be possible. That is, as long as you knew the channel vs. frequency list. The difficult part would be figuring out what channel the radio thinks a particular frequency is in it's look-up table.

I have a frequency hopping portable that reminds me of this conundrum. It has a table of 1024 frequency slots that can be edited freely in the software. The pseudo random generator then picks the frequencies from that table in hop mode. If both radios contain the same table and the same hop code they will operate with each other. If one of the tables is off then the other doesn't know where to go next and the whole communications path fails.
 

slicerwizard

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DickH said:
A very short sentence in that information said something about the band plan could be changed by the user. That must be the Shuffled Band Plan. At the time, it didn't mean much to me, but since reading the above quote I think it could be a huge problem for us. How can Uniden and GRE provide a new band plan when it could be different for every system? Think about it and let's hope I'm wrong.
If the shuffled bandplan is the same for all 800 MHz systems, scanner manufacturers can just incorporate it in their next firmware upgrade. If every system can implement a unique bandplan, they'll soon support LCN's for 3600 bps Moto systems, just as they do for EDACS and LTR. Problem solved.
 

N4DES

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As another point is it was also developed to protect the system's from unauthorized programming of a radio as well. There is a very high probability that an individual will not have access to an Advanced System Key and therefore not able to prgram the feature and using the regular system key it will not work correctly.

That combined with the need to have a very recent flashcode and CPS the issues of illegal affiliations and unauthorized programming should decrease once systems are re-banded.
 

loumaag

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The Shuffled Band Plan AFAIK just means that the previously used current (and future re-banded) Motorola channel list can be changed so that channel 1 is no longer 851.0125 but then will go up from there in normal order. I am unclear if it wraps itself around so that the top of the list goes to the lower frequencies. For example (using the current Moto channel list) if channel 1 becomes 851.0375, will then channel 920 (top of the list) become 851.0125 (wrapped around to the beginning)? I don't know. Clearly if this is the way it goes, the Pro-96/2096 radios will be able to handle any system so set up using the custom table for 800 MHz, those are the only two radios I am aware that lets you ignore the "standard" list stored in the radio.

All of this is academic until such time we find a system set up this way though.
 

loumaag

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mancow said:
If that's the case then it's not nearly as bad. If it's truly random then....:mad:
Yes, but that will still present a problem for any ROM loaded list from the manufacturers.
 

Stick0413

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loumaag said:
The Shuffled Band Plan AFAIK just means that the previously used current (and future re-banded) Motorola channel list can be changed so that channel 1 is no longer 851.0125 but then will go up from there in normal order. I am unclear if it wraps itself around so that the top of the list goes to the lower frequencies. For example (using the current Moto channel list) if channel 1 becomes 851.0375, will then channel 920 (top of the list) become 851.0125 (wrapped around to the beginning)? I don't know. Clearly if this is the way it goes, the Pro-96/2096 radios will be able to handle any system so set up using the custom table for 800 MHz, those are the only two radios I am aware that lets you ignore the "standard" list stored in the radio.

All of this is academic until such time we find a system set up this way though.

And the PSR-500/600.
 

DickH

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loumaag said:
The Shuffled Band Plan AFAIK just means that the previously used current (and future re-banded) Motorola channel list can be changed so that channel 1 is no longer 851.0125 but then will go up from there in normal order. ...

AFAIK in my dictionary shuffle means "to mix in a disorderly mass", not normal order.
 

loumaag

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Stick0413 said:
And the PSR-500/600.
I don't have one yet (and the 600 is not out yet ;) ); however looking at Don's software, this appears to be the case.
 

loumaag

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DickH said:
AFAIK in my dictionary shuffle means "to mix in a disorderly mass", not normal order.
I will agree that is the dictionary definition; however, that doesn't necessarily mean that is what Motorola is using it to mean. Since no one has reported one yet (indeed we have no confirmed re-banded Motorola systems yet), I don't think any definitive information is available yet.
 

DickH

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loumaag said:
I will agree that is the dictionary definition; however, that doesn't necessarily mean that is what Motorola is using it to mean. Since no one has reported one yet (indeed we have no confirmed re-banded Motorola systems yet), I don't think any definitive information is available yet.

That's right. My comment was simply to point out that YOUR interpretation of shuffle was not valid, just as your interpretation of LCN relating to Motorola systems is not valid.
 

loumaag

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DickH said:
That's right. My comment was simply to point out that YOUR interpretation of shuffle was not valid, just as your interpretation of LCN relating to Motorola systems is not valid.
Ahh, okay. :lol:
I am willing to bet that my interpretation of what Motorola calls a "shuffled band-plan" is a lot more like a "shifted band-plan" whenever we find one to examine though. ;)
 

DickH

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loumaag said:
Ahh, okay. :lol:
I am willing to bet that my interpretation of what Motorola calls a "shuffled band-plan" is a lot more like a "shifted band-plan" whenever we find one to examine though. ;)

I hope you're right Lou. If it's truly shuffled, we scannists are in for a pile of headaches. :)
 
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