FCC REBANDING Discussion Thread

[petrol88]

Moderator Edit:
A discussion of the rebanding history and other information may be found on the RR Wiki at the following link:
http://www.radioreference.com/wiki/index.php/Rebanding

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Parts of this discussion have been scattered around in different groups, so I thought I'd start this one to collect info in one place.

FCC Rebanding starting this summer will make some (all?) trunkers not work anymore on analog 800 MHz Motorola systems. Which scanners will stop working? Which can be updated to work using a firmware change?

I think that Uniden can update firmware on some of their models, but they won't say whether they are going to or not (or if they do, which ones). I think that some of the GRE's might be able to work without an update, but can't find the thread talking about that, now so maybe the person who posted it will post it again here so we can find it. I don't think any of the GRE's can be updated, so if they don't work what is RS going to do about it?

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by petrol88

Parts of this discussion have been scattered around in different groups, so I thought I'd start this one to collect info in one place.

FCC Rebanding starting this summer will make some (all?) trunkers not work anymore on analog 800 MHz Motorola systems. Which scanners will stop working? Which can be updated to work using a firmware change?

I think that Uniden can update firmware on some of their models, but they won't say whether they are going to or not (or if they do, which ones). I think that some of the GRE's might be able to work without an update, but can't find the thread talking about that, now so maybe the person who posted it will post it again here so we can find it. I don't think any of the GRE's can be updated, so if they don't work what is RS going to do about it?

Here is the part that started the discussion on the Yahoo groups:

Start 'quoted' text (to end of message):
__________________________________________________ __________________
> > If the trunking tables were to change, the firmware in EVERY radio
> > would also have to be changed.
>
> ( According to the plan, the tables are changing. See <
http://www.motorola.com/cgiss/800reb...onBandPlan.pdf
> )
>

Interesting doc. They want you to REPLACE all your Spectras, Sabers,
STXs, MTXs, Maxtracs, LCSs, LTSs, and many MTS2000s. They want to you
buy XTSs and XTLs at 1500+ each.

I somehow think a LOT of PS agencies are going to balk at replacing so
many radios.

It looks like Motorola is taking this oppertunity to revise the
rebanding plan to make all the above mentioned radios OBSOLETE and
require purchase of new radios. There is NO REASON why those radios
cannot be used in the 'new' spectrum on the EXISTING channels they are
currently set up for, and place any new systems on the 'splinter'
channels with the revised bandplan.

This is a political BS to make money off the rebanding.

Yes, if this happens, it will also make all current TT scanners OBSOLETE
for Motorola systems. Note that EDACS and LTR is not affected.

More to follow...

Joe M.

[Voyager]

GREs happen to have 6 tables. Coincidentally, the proposed plan also would require 6 tables, so the new plan COULD be put in the GRE models as folows:

BASE OFFSET STEP
851.03750 002 12.5k
851.53750 040 12.5k
852.03750 078 12.5k
852.53750 116 12.5k
853.03750 154 12.5k
854.01250 231 25.0k

This doesn't include the I-CALL and I-TAC channels, but they aren't psrt of trunking systems anyway.

Unidens are largely upgradable via PC (except certainly the BC235XLT and maybe some other TTs), so firmware updates are possible. Firmware updates are possible for the GREs, too, but would require a trip to Fort Worth.

Joe M.

[milf]

HMMMM Sooo
This means its time for GRE/Uniden to add firmware updates to include the NEW 800, and add 700.... Will GRE offer a discounted price to upgrade everything from the PRO-91 up to the 96/2096????

Or will they most likely say- Oh well and just say sorry guys your out of luck.. we will get you a new generation of scanners as soon as we can???

One wonders if the still unreleased BCD396T's will go back to the drawing boards and get modded before they put it on shelves?

On the Motorola front- Yes its a good a time as any to make you upgrade your equipment as a lot of agencies/municipalities are running discontinued and NO LONGER SUPPORTED field equipment. When the old crap wears out... they would need to replace it with new radios anyway since M no longer carries them.... So basically I don't see why folks are whining, your older stuff is going away anyway... And you think M/A-Com isn't gonna do the same thing with field equipment? They most assuredly are gonna push REAL HARD to make sure you buy newer stuff. They may not be changing splinters/tables.. yet... but they will be saying your older radios are not sufficient. Its all good business. Politics has nothing to do with it on that end. Locally what your municipalities/agencies say or do in regrds to the equipment is politics all day long.

[W4KRR]

This rebanding will only affect scanners if you are tracking Motorola systems, correct? EDACS systems shouldn't be affected due to the use of LCN's instead of tables.

I would think that the BC246T should be upgradable with a simple firmware upgrade. As far as public safety radios, didn't Nextel agree to foot the bill for any new equipment needed?

[milf]

It will effect EDCS and LTR as the LCN's will NO LONGER BE VALID. They will reprogram the entire system with NEW LCN's to reflect the changes.

Example-
Before rebanding-
System A- EDACS
LCN's
01 866.0125
02 866.2125
03 866.4375
After rebanding-
New Freqs-
855.0125
858.4625
859.7375

The former LCN scheme is no longer valid.

Same for an LTR system.

And yes Nexthell is footing the biggest portin of the bill with reimbursment from the FCC.

[W4KRR]

Originally Posted by milf

It will effect EDCS and LTR as the LCN's will NO LONGER BE VALID. They will reprogram the entire system with NEW LCN's to reflect the changes.

Example-
Before rebanding-
System A- EDACS
LCN's
01 866.0125
02 866.2125
03 866.4375
After rebanding-
New Freqs-
855.0125
858.4625
859.7375

The former LCN scheme is no longer valid.

Same for an LTR system.

And yes Nexthell is footing the biggest portin of the bill with reimbursment from the FCC.

What I should have said is that a Trunk tracking scanner if used on an EDACS system will just have to be reprogrammed. A Trunk tracking scanner used on a Motorola system won't work correctly anymore.

I would bet that older scanners won't be upgradable, but maybe newer scanners, like the PRO-96 and BC246T can be firmware upgraded so they can still be used.

I predict a big glut of trunk tracking scanners on eBay in a couple of years :x

[loumaag]

A point to be made is that there will be a transition period. So, what do you do during that transition period? Even if the scanner manufactures come up with a table change, how do they handle the fact that some people will need the new tables and some people the old tables and some will need both?

In regard to the Motorola tables, remember, no document has yet stated what channel will be what actual program channel for the Moto tables. Yes, I have seen the transition document, but it is just a list of the channels, not the Motorola implementation of that channel list. One possiblility is the list I put together that Joe showed up above, another is the list that Eric Cottrell came up with:

Originally Posted by EricCottrell

I suspect the new map will be
Normal (Post Rebanding)
851.0125,0.025,0
851.0000,0.025,2d0
852.0000,0.025,32f
853.9750,0.000,3be
852.4250,0.025,3c1

And remember, Motorola is under no obligation that I know of to release that information, so it may go bact to the pre-TrunkTracker days of users figuring it out again. :?

[milf]

Those that are trunk savy will be able to deduce the new tables within one day of the new stuff going online.

The transition is 30 days. Yep 30 days from initiaion of change to new freqs/tables etc online! This is for each system.

[W4KRR]

Originally Posted by milf

Those that are trunk savy will be able to deduce the new tables within one day of the new stuff going online.

The transition is 30 days. Yep 30 days from initiaion of change to new freqs/tables etc online! This is for each system.

When will actual reprogramming of systems begin? I read a document at www.800mhzrebanding.com, that seems to have conflicting information.

Does "Reconfiguration Start Date" mean actual reprogramming of equipment, or does it mean the date they're supposed to start discussing a plan? It seems we are anywhere from a few months to three years before we see any system changes.

Will there likely be lawsuits to attempt to modify or eliminate the rebanding plan?

[petrol88]

So, to put it in kinda the same language as Motorola, there are 3 situations with scanners:

Reprogrammed: Just need to have the system frequencies changed and/or add or update the extended band plan table.

Reflashed: Need to be reflashed to recognize the new band plan.

Replaced: Cannot be updated to support the new band plan for Mot 800 Analog systems.

Maybe we can start a table of what we think is the case for each trunking scanner (I put -- Reflashed? on the Unidens because they've already issued updates for these, right? And I'd expect them to be able to for future ones...)...can anyone fill in the blanks?

BCD396T -- Reflashed?
BC246T -- Reflashed?
PRO-97
PRO-96 -- Reprogrammed
PRO-95
PRO-94
PRO-93
PRO-92
PRO-91
PRO-90
BC296D -- Reflashed?
BC796D -- Reflashed?
BC245XLT
BC785D
BC250D
BC780XLT
BC895XLT
BC898T -- Reflashed?
BCT8 -- Reflashed?

[mikey60]

Pro-90/BC235XLT - Replaced
Pro-91 - Replaced
BC245XLT - Replaced

These are too old to be reprogrammed/upgraded I would think.

Mike

[X41587]

Could someone please explain to me what rebanding is? And if it will affect MARCS.. are PS comms. moving to 700 MHz? Thanks in advance for the help.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by petrol88

PRO-96 -- Reprogrammed

Actually, using the tables is a workaround - not a solution. The real solution is a CPU replacement that has the new bandplan so it still works the way it does NOW.

Joe M.

[mikey60]

Originally Posted by X41587

Could someone please explain to me what rebanding is? And if it will affect MARCS.. are PS comms. moving to 700 MHz? Thanks in advance for the help.

Basically it's moving Nextel up into the high part of the 800mhz band, and moving public safety down into the lower part of the 800Mhz band.

It will definately affect MARCS, but not for awhile. Since MARCS is currently a 3600bps control channel system, it will have to use the new Motorola bandplan in order for it to work.

Mike

[Michelle0H]

You guys are way over my head here, but let me ask this....I just purchased a Pro-95 as a Father's Day gift and the area it will be used in uses a Motorola system. Would you assume the Pro-95 will be okay after this change?

If not, I may just open it and keep it for myself! :shock:

[mikey60]

Originally Posted by Michelle0H

You guys are way over my head here, but let me ask this....I just purchased a Pro-95 as a Father's Day gift and the area it will be used in uses a Motorola system. Would you assume the Pro-95 will be okay after this change?

If not, I may just open it and keep it for myself! :shock:

Ohio and Michigan won't start to be rebanded until late in 2006 at the earliest (The negotiation period is currently scheduled to start in the 2nd quarter of 2006, with rebanding of NPSPAC frequencies (866-868.9875) starting in the 4th quarter of 2006 or the first quarter of 2007. That timetable depends on how long it takes to negotiate a new treaty with Canada, so those are tentitive dates.

Details can be found at http://www.800ta.org

Someone mentioned that the pro-95 may be able to be used with custom tables... We won't know for sure until these systems start to get moved.

Mike

[X41587]

So basicaly what the input is for say 868 is going to be about where they'll be moved down to? Are they going to open that band up for the public in scanners?

[milf]

PRO-91 Replaced.. PRO-92's Replaced, PRO-93, Replaced, PRO-94's.. Most likely replaced.... And the PRO-95 Might get lucky and still viable for upgrade, most likely replaced....

:idea: So yeah in the next five years,.. your gonna see a bunch of TT's on eBay... Though for non 800, these are still gonna be great scanners... I will keep my 92 B and use it for conventional, and all the new LTR VHF/UHF's comming online. Perhaps the next gen digiscanners will be made with the new bandplans already set up, and I will fork out the dough for one then... :idea:

96, 97 etc... upgraded. BC250D... replaced by the BC296D which can be updated. Same with the base/mobiles. BCT12 etc.... That's the tricky ones... Could be updated.. though who knows... BC246T updated, the BCD396T.. might get redone in shop before they release it.

:?: Considering.. here is a question... To change the CPU's or firmware, won't they all need to get a New FCC approval??? I know what a horrible thought, but when you basically completely change the original specs.. you void the original FCC approval. So I guess they would have to make them all B, or C versions??? Here is where a Software Defined Scanner would be useful indeed.. Just go to the PC, do some reprogging.. and bingo.... sigh.... still years off though. :?:

[milf]

Here is what rebanding means: No one will be above 860 MHz... All the old Nationwide PS freqs in the 866 and above area will go away. 700 will open up, and anything between 851 and 860 can be used... The mutual aid freqs will be redone below 860 also. Along with all this Nexthell will get that big new spectrum chunk. And they will get reimbursed for the cost of helping PS to reband....