LOW BAND VHF question

[ShawnCowden]

what do u all think the future of the low band police band 30-49 mhz will be once everyone goes to VHF hi UHF 800 or etc ? any chance ham will be used here ?

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by ShawnCowden

what do u all think the future of the low band police band 30-49 mhz will be once everyone goes to VHF hi UHF 800 or etc ?

I've often wondered that myself, but I don't see any indicator that the usage of low band is going to really change much anytime soon. It has some unique characteristics that make it particularly well suited for some uses, and particularly poor for others - especially consumer oriented services. When large statewide agencies such as the CHP can get adequate coverage from a relatively small number of sites, vs the billions of dollars it would take to get comparable 800 MHz coverage, there's little technical incentive, and no financial incentive to migrate.

But the above is merely my opinion, and nothing more.

Originally Posted by ShawnCowden

any chance ham will be used here?

No, none.

[DDan]

I can see them going p25 vhf possibly. Somewhere I saw that they did a test on a system that used appropriate freqs for the environment they were trying to cover. I didn't see any results that I can remember.

[SCANdal]

Shawn,

Something needs to be clarified here...there is no such thing as a "police" band any longer. Back around about 2003 or so the Federal Communications Commission went through a process known as "refarming" whereby the old services (PP - Police, PF - Fire, IW - Power companies, etc.) were consolidated into two broad pools of frequencies called Public Safety and Business/Industrial. As a result you will now find, for example, fire departments licensed on 155.205, an old PS (special emergency, usually EMS) frequency when, before '03, they were never on there. Should a VHF-Low band frequency become vacant when one service clears away (in your example, the police), I fully expect another service that has a continuing need to expand it's channel plan, to request a license on that frequency - thus keeping the frequency in the Public Safety pool. This is, of course, dependent on the agency that is moving up to give up it's license on it's vacated low-band channel(s). Many have a nasty habit of renewing licenses on channels that have long ago been abandoned - thus tieing up precious spectrum that could be used elsewhere.

SCANdal

[W4KRR]

In some places, the VHF low band is getting new life. The Florida Department of Transportation is currently building a state wide VHF low band repeater system. Repeater outputs will be in the 47.XX MHz range; inputs will be in the 45.XX MHz range. There will also be a few simplex common channels. The DOT currently uses 47.XX MHz simplex channels for its communications, as it has for many years. The new system is supposed to be up and running within the next few months. So low band isn't quite dead yet, at least not everywhere.

[w8jjr]

It wont go away for sometime. There are places that the upper VHF and UHF freqs just wont work.

[rfradioconsult]

A well designed AND maintained VHF low-band system will provide superior base to mobile coverage in almost any situation, portables are an exception; the problem lies in the poor performance of comprised portable antennas.

[b7spectra]

Military is still there! Let alone the Childrens Band radio.

[Wyandotte]

Originally Posted by rfradioconsult

A well designed AND maintained VHF low-band system will provide superior base to mobile coverage in almost any situation, portables are an exception; the problem lies in the poor performance of comprised portable antennas.

You're right.

When I first got into scanning, more years than I care to mention, there was about a half dozen DPW's on VHF Lo around me. All those DPW systems went to UHF because, as system performance began to deteriotate, no one thought to swap out the antenna and feedline that had been up there since the 50's and 60's. I was at a neighboring DPW's after it was swapped out. I could crack the old coax like a twig.

The one low band police frequency that was active near me in the 70's (oops) went to VHF High because they were running without a PL, and was getting interference from other states.

[w0fg]

Amateur radio has 28-30 Mhz and 50-54 Mhz, both lightly used, particularly in periods of low solar activity. The chance of another low VHF allocation is non-existent.

[DaveNF2G]

Ham radio is unlikely to receive any more spectrum anywhere. It is not a revenue producing radio service. I can foresee a time when, to "balance" our trillion-dollar budget deficits, ham operators in the USA will begin paying for our licenses. That will probably be the first step toward eliminating most hobbyist access to very valuable radio spectrum.

[kb2vxa]

"Many have a nasty habit of renewing licenses on channels that have long ago been abandoned - thus tying up precious spectrum that could be used elsewhere."
(Fixed it for ya.)

On the contrary, those channels have not been abandoned, rather the usage has changed. When the primary service migrated the old channels have been retained for secondary or backup usage, often wide area simulcast or point to point communication due to the nature of the band. A channel that appears dead may come alive once in a while only you'll never notice unless you monitor it. That's the way it's done around here, your actual mileage may vary.

"Military is still there! Let alone the Children's Band radio."

Neither were EVER there, check your spectrum allocation chart. Originally it was an experimental band, Armstrong conducted his FM experiments there broadcasting from Alpine NJ with the callsign W2XMN. There was another across the Hudson in New York, W2XR later to become WQXR after the frequency change to 88-108MHz.

"Amateur radio has 28-30 Mhz and 50-54 Mhz, both lightly used, particularly in periods of low solar activity."

Don't kid yourself Rick, 10 and 6M have always been the Amateur "CB" bands for local and regional chatter and when sporadic E propagation happens you'll find out why we call 6 the magic band. Come June give a listen, that's when we get the best openings, Europe and Africa tend to dominate. At solar maximum of course things really happen, once in a while the MUF goes above 60MHz and F skip happens, New Jersey to the southern tip of Argentina ain't half bad and I have a QSL card to prove it. Oh, I just love when Japan dominates 10 and 11M CB, "freeband" and all becomes chaotic and completely unusable... heh heh heh.

Well Dave ya got that right, 220 and 440 have been under attack for decades but somehow I don't think we'll lose HF spectrum for two reasons. First it is of little value for generating any kind of revenue, it's pretty useless for anything but long range comms and that is on the decline, SW broadcast is a ghost of it's former self too. Reason number two, what about all those other hams out there? I think the ITU would have something to say about the US allocating HF bands to any other service especially since commercial CW stations are a thing of the past and the few other services like broadcast that share a few bands in regions 1 and 3 are going dark little by little.

Anyway the whole point is things change but someone once said the more things change the more they stay the same. I guess you have to look a little deeper than the surface, turtles, dolphins and whales only come up for air once in a while but they're down there just the same.

Oh and BTW, EVERYTHING beats Mopar! (;->)

[impalass427]

I've been saying this for over 25 years: There's no band like Low Band..

[gmclam]

Originally Posted by SCANdal

Many have a nasty habit of renewing licenses on channels that have long ago been abandoned - thus tieing up precious spectrum that could be used elsewhere.

I see this in my area. Not necessarily with low band, but agencies keeping licenses on an old spectrum after moving to something new.

I understand that some sort of study has been requested to determine the value of all radio spectrum in the USA. My feeling is that Congress is looking for more spectrum they can auction for more $$$ to waste (like they've done with the soon-to-be reclaimed TV spectrum).

[NeFire242]

Originally Posted by W4KRR

In some places, the VHF low band is getting new life. The Florida Department of Transportation is currently building a state wide VHF low band repeater system.

Wow you imagine what the cans must be at their sites for a low band repeater... woo...

[DaveNF2G]

The duplexers (cans) on low band are probably not as massive as you might imagine. The FDOT system is using a 2 MHz offset, which, as a percentage of frequency, is much larger than VHF and UHF splits. Think about how much less filtering would be needed if UHF repeater inputs were 20 MHz up from the outputs!

[DaveNF2G]

Originally Posted by kb2vxa

I think the ITU would have something to say about the US allocating HF bands to any other service especially since commercial CW stations are a thing of the past and the few other services like broadcast that share a few bands in regions 1 and 3 are going dark little by little.

The ITU is taking spectrum from non-commercial users in other regions already.

The current administration is busy surrendering to everybody else in the world, so if the "new world order" says to get hams off HF or anywhere else, Obamarx' response will be a snappy "yassuh!"

The USA is becoming France.

[DaveH]

As a low-band listener way back (don't do much anymore due to electrical
noise and much lower activity), I used to enjoy hearing a bunch on simplex
and repeaters in my area, including agencies like OPP (provincial police).

A fairly common lowband spacing was 300kHz, and some of the cavities
I saw recently (after a system was dismantled) were 7-8 feet long; this was
for 40-50MHz and 4MHz spacing.

Warren you are saying the US military doesn't use 30-50MHz? That
surprises me. In Canada, DND uses lowband, mostly toward the high
end from what I know.

Dave

[kb2vxa]

The US military has slices of that portion of the spectrum but the discussion I believe is about "police" band as the OP stated and was largely focused on public service allocations. That's why I said "never", unlike other portions of the spectrum that are shared most are military exclusive and this is one of them. As for actual usage of those low VHF slices by the military I have no idea, in this area at least I've seen no listings nor have I heard any activity.

[SCANdal]

Originally Posted by kb2vxa

"Many have a nasty habit of renewing licenses on channels that have long ago been abandoned - thus tying up precious spectrum that could be used elsewhere."
(Fixed it for ya.)

On the contrary, those channels have not been abandoned, rather the usage has changed. When the primary service migrated the old channels have been retained for secondary or backup usage, often wide area simulcast or point to point communication due to the nature of the band. A channel that appears dead may come alive once in a while only you'll never notice unless you monitor it. That's the way it's done around here, your actual mileage may vary.

Warren,

While I'm not going to discount your claim as it may be applicable in some areas, I stand by mine as being the case more often then not. Example: KEB339. Look it up in the FCC database. There is not one low band portable, mobile, or base radio in the inventory of the agency in question yet, barring a modification before 2013, three perfectly good low band channels are being sat on for absolutely no good reason. Granted, those frequencies are in a portion of the VHF low band that I know of no one knocking doors down to get to (as opposed to the upper 42. to 50. MHz range), but it is just one example of how lazy spectrum management on the part of both the licensees and the Commission results in valuable resources being squandered.

SCANdal