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Old 04-17-2012, 11:55 AM
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Default Anybody use a Radio-Tone Full Duplex Cross Band Repeater Controller

I saw this and thought of using two mobiles instead of two HT's on GMRS. Is this unit worth anything or is it junk? I also saw another picture of this unit and also a mini duplexer attached with two HT's. What does the duplexer do?
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:10 PM
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The duplexer allows a repeater to use one antenna for transmit and recieve rather than one antenna for receive and one antenna for transmit. It keeps the repeater transmitter from de-sensing the repeater reciever.
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Old 04-17-2012, 7:27 PM
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I've heard that the actual repeater controllers made by Radio-tone are pretty good. The duplexers they sell, are not. At least that's what I've heard.
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Old 04-17-2012, 7:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob-the-scanner-man
I've heard that the actual repeater controllers made by Radio-tone are pretty good. The duplexers they sell, are not. At least that's what I've heard.
Look on Fleabay, the chinese knock-off mobile duplexers are as good or better as the Sinclair mobile duplexers that they are copies of. $100USD or so.
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Old 04-17-2012, 9:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mjz55 View Post
I saw this and thought of using two mobiles instead of two HT's on GMRS. Is this unit worth anything or is it junk? I also saw another picture of this unit and also a mini duplexer attached with two HT's. What does the duplexer do?
Here ya go!

Integrated Control Systems


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Old 04-17-2012, 9:16 PM
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gewecke, I'm sorry I am totally clueless what I need. I don't know what you think I need.
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Old 04-17-2012, 9:23 PM
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gewecke, I'm sorry I am totally clueless what I need. I don't know what you think I need.

Look at the linker 2A, That is a dual port controller which can be operated using DTMF commands.

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Old 04-17-2012, 9:30 PM
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ok, saw it. so does this replace the Radio-Tone Full Duplex Cross Band Repeater Controller? If so, what else do i need?
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Old 04-20-2012, 2:41 PM
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I just saw they make a non cross-tone version Radio-Tone Duplex repeater controller - Radioshop888 KG-UVD1P KG-UV6D TG-UV2 ROIP Repeater Controller Speaker Mic Ham Radio KG-669 KG-689 PX-777 PX-888 FT-897 FT-857 VX-177 VXA-300 KG-679 VEV-3288S V-1000 TG-UV FT-817ND FT-60R FT-897 FT-857 VX-7R VX-. Did anyone use this?
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Old 05-26-2012, 5:49 PM
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Default radiotone repeater

Hi there
I have one of the radiotone repeaters and its quite good. I run it with 2x wouxun Ht with their own antenna's or with a cheap duplexer. I set the Tx about 500khz higher or lower than the Rx so to stop desensing or use 2x separate aerial's spaced quite far apart. Hope this helps.



Kev
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Old 07-30-2012, 7:04 PM
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Hello,

I'm new to posting on the forum, but have been a long time lurker, learning from a great many posts and posters.

I'm not sure of this forum's generally-accepted position on opening old threads, but I know that many prefer that you try to limit creating new posts for existing/older discussions. So I'm gonna take a leap and go ahead and bump this thread back to the top with a few comments and questions about the Radio Tone repeater product line.

First, a few words on my experience with the Radio Tone RT-FDR1, which is the "same-band" version of the repeater made by Radio Tone. I know this thread is about the RT-CRC1 (the cross-band version), but I believe they work the same. Honestly, I can't figure why Radio Tone produced a cross-band and a same-band version of the repeater. It's the RX and TX radios (and their frequencies) that are connected to the controller that determine whether you're repeating within the same band or cross banding. Am I missing something?!

Anyway...I have the FDR1 cabled up to two Wouxun KG-UV2D radios, operating on (obviously) two different frequencies (in my case I'm testing the setup with GMRS freqs--call sign WQAP467). Just cabled up and operating around the house, the repeater works great. Does exactly what it's advertised to do. However, try to use the same setup from more than about a 100 meters away (well within simplex range!), and the entire system fails completely. This is the case when using the rubber-ducky antennas on the Wouxuns, two mag-mount antennas, and a Comet tri-band antenna mounted on the house and a cheap duplexer (supposedly tuned to the two GMRS freqs I've chosen for my repeater).

I'm working the repeater using two 4W GMRS HTs. Again, in close proximity, the controller works fine; from anything further away than the immediate premises, the controller malfunctions. However, if I hit the repeater with 50W from my GMRS mobile, it sorta works--not like it should, but at least you can tell that it's trying to do what it's supposed to. If I move another 150 meters away, even with the 50W mobile rig, the repeater again drops out.

This should not be happening, especially with a high-quality antenna stuck up in the air at 40' HAAT. A regular HT monitoring the repeater input freq. at the repeater location was receiving with full quieting. So I know that the RX is good. Likewise, transmitting simplex from the repeater location on the repeater output freq. was received with full quieting over 1KM away; so TX is good.

After doing a lot of reading, I think I have a duplexer and desensitization issue. But I'm really not sure, as I've read of a few people who have the Radio Tone repeaters working just fine. (Maybe they have fancy duplexers...)

So, this is a very long-winded way of asking: Those of you (Kev, "kevtheskin") who have the Radio Tone repeater working, how did you do it?! What are you using for antennas, duplexers, TX/RX freq separation, antenna separation, etc.? I haven't been able to find any way of getting the repeater to work "normally" with any combination of antennas.

I think "bobthescannerman" might have given the best advice that the small, inexpensive duplexers are junk. I think that's what my problem is.

So, anyone want to weigh in on a good hardware assortment to get the Radio Tone repeater working? Maybe a recommendation on a good duplexer that's less than, say, $200? I hear the Wacom's are great, but at the cheapest, they're around $500! (Yeah, yeah, I know: Anyone who thinks they're going to get into the repeater business, better be prepared to drain his bank account. But, c'mon, there's gotta be a way to make this work.)

Thanks. I look forward to any input. Thanks for you patience in reading this LONG post!

73.

-Mike
K0MTB
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Old 08-01-2012, 12:23 PM
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Default radiotone repeater

Hello Mike. As to my previous post
The duplexer I use is a cheap comet one for 2m and 70cm. You might find that your channel spacing is not far enough apart or you may be getting near to a harmonic?. As for the crossband radio tone. This allow you to tx both ways eg 144/433 one radio tx/rx on simplex and the other on rx/tx 70cm. As the name states crossband. The duplex repeater only alows 1x Tx frequency. I hope this helps.Oh also try staggering your antennas in height.
Hi there
I have one of the radiotone repeaters and its quite good. I run it with 2x wouxun Ht with their own antenna's or with a cheap duplexer. I set the Tx about 500khz higher or lower than the Rx so to stop desensing or use 2x separate aerial's spaced quite far apart. Hope this helps.

Cheers 73s Kev
Quote:
Originally Posted by K0MTB View Post
Hello,




Kev

I'm new to posting on the forum, but have been a long time lurker, learning from a great many posts and posters.

I'm not sure of this forum's generally-accepted position on opening old threads, but I know that many prefer that you try to limit creating new posts for existing/older discussions. So I'm gonna take a leap and go ahead and bump this thread back to the top with a few comments and questions about the Radio Tone repeater product line.

First, a few words on my experience with the Radio Tone RT-FDR1, which is the "same-band" version of the repeater made by Radio Tone. I know this thread is about the RT-CRC1 (the cross-band version), but I believe they work the same. Honestly, I can't figure why Radio Tone produced a cross-band and a same-band version of the repeater. It's the RX and TX radios (and their frequencies) that are connected to the controller that determine whether you're repeating within the same band or cross banding. Am I missing something?!

Anyway...I have the FDR1 cabled up to two Wouxun KG-UV2D radios, operating on (obviously) two different frequencies (in my case I'm testing the setup with GMRS freqs--call sign WQAP467). Just cabled up and operating around the house, the repeater works great. Does exactly what it's advertised to do. However, try to use the same setup from more than about a 100 meters away (well within simplex range!), and the entire system fails completely. This is the case when using the rubber-ducky antennas on the Wouxuns, two mag-mount antennas, and a Comet tri-band antenna mounted on the house and a cheap duplexer (supposedly tuned to the two GMRS freqs I've chosen for my repeater).

I'm working the repeater using two 4W GMRS HTs. Again, in close proximity, the controller works fine; from anything further away than the immediate premises, the controller malfunctions. However, if I hit the repeater with 50W from my GMRS mobile, it sorta works--not like it should, but at least you can tell that it's trying to do what it's supposed to. If I move another 150 meters away, even with the 50W mobile rig, the repeater again drops out.

This should not be happening, especially with a high-quality antenna stuck up in the air at 40' HAAT. A regular HT monitoring the repeater input freq. at the repeater location was receiving with full quieting. So I know that the RX is good. Likewise, transmitting simplex from the repeater location on the repeater output freq. was received with full quieting over 1KM away; so TX is good.

After doing a lot of reading, I think I have a duplexer and desensitization issue. But I'm really not sure, as I've read of a few people who have the Radio Tone repeaters working just fine. (Maybe they have fancy duplexers...)

So, this is a very long-winded way of asking: Those of you (Kev, "kevtheskin") who have the Radio Tone repeater working, how did you do it?! What are you using for antennas, duplexers, TX/RX freq separation, antenna separation, etc.? I haven't been able to find any way of getting the repeater to work "normally" with any combination of antennas.

I think "bobthescannerman" might have given the best advice that the small, inexpensive duplexers are junk. I think that's what my problem is.

So, anyone want to weigh in on a good hardware assortment to get the Radio Tone repeater working? Maybe a recommendation on a good duplexer that's less than, say, $200? I hear the Wacom's are great, but at the cheapest, they're around $500! (Yeah, yeah, I know: Anyone who thinks they're going to get into the repeater business, better be prepared to drain his bank account. But, c'mon, there's gotta be a way to make this work.)

Thanks. I look forward to any input. Thanks for you patience in reading this LONG post!

73.

-Mike
K0MTB
WQAP467
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Old 08-01-2012, 12:44 PM
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K0MTB: Are you using a duplexer with one antenna or 2 seperate antennas?

Your post is somewhat difficult to decode, BUT if I were to guess you are using 2 seperate antennas, and
If you are using seperate antennas, I would guess that you do not have sufficient isolation between Tx and Rx. It works fine when close by because the signal strength of your signal is strong enough to over come the repeater transmitter. Even a ways away a 50w mobile will not have the strength to over come the adjacent, close by transmitter.

For best results I strongly recomend buying a duplexer, along with DOUBLE shielded jumpers to connect the duplexer to the T/Rx radios and double shielded cable from duplexer to antenna.
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:54 AM
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Kevtheskin and kayn1n32008,

Thanks for the replies and ideas, gents!

I’ve tried to get my repeater working with several antenna and duplexer configurations. Kayn1n asked about this. I’ve tried it with…

+ Two HTs and their respective, on-board, rubber-ducky antennas (spaced as far apart as the Radio Tone interface cables would allow—about 6’)
+ Two HTs connected to mag-mount, dual-band antennas (one on a bar-b-que grill, another on a 2’-square piece of 18_ga steel sheeting), placed as far apart as the mag-mounts would allow (~30’ horizontally—this might have been my problem…see below).
+ Two HTs connected to a cheap mobile duplexer that was then connected to a “Ventenna” dual-band antenna on the top of my house. (I also tried the duplexer connected to the mag-mount antenna on the bar-b-que.)

The duplexer was tuned by Joe Chung at RadioTone as follows: HIGH 467.7000_MHz and LOW 462.7000_MHz.

While researching my issue I came across another post by WA0CBW located at http://forums.radioreference.com/gmr...-repeater.html, who stated:

“According to calculations for a 5 watt transmitter to a unity gain antenna you would need 65 db of isolation between the TX and RX antennas. That equates to 26 feet of vertical or 481 feet of horizontal separation.”

In my rubber-ducky and mag-mount antenna configurations I was never anywhere near 481’ of horizontal separation! So good chance the proximity of the antennas, as kayn1n explained, is my problem. I should be able to test this by using a mag-mount antenna on the ground for one “side” of the repeater, and the Ventenna (on top of a near-three-story house—real close to at least 26 vertical feet) for the other “side” of the repeater. That should give me the isolation I need.

But what bugs me is that I DO have a duplexer, and I have used it with the Ventenna, and I still had desense issues. I wonder if my duplexer is not working correctly…or is improperly tuned…or I have crumby cabling between the radios and the duplexer. I’m using the same exact cables (and probably the same duplexer!) kpoe_28 is using in his portable repeater, as seen here http://forums.radioreference.com/att...peater-009.jpg, and his set up appears to be working fine.

I have an amateur radio friend coming over to do some work on his mountain bike in the morning. We’re going to do some more troubleshooting and I’ll try to implement some of the ideas kayn1n has suggested and see what we come up with. For the greater good I’ll be sure to post the results—maybe this will be of benefit to others in the future.

Thanks again for the help, guys. I appreciate it!

-Mike
K0MTB
WQAP467
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Old 08-02-2012, 7:26 PM
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Try using double shielded coax. Currently we have a Uhf 12.5w repeater with a mobile duplexer, and it works great.

Double shielded coax jumpers are a must. If not that can also explain the desense issue.

Even with proper seperation, if the coax to your antennas is not double shielded or is not hard line you WILL have desense.

Save yourself the frustration and buy good double shield coax or hard line.
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Old 08-03-2012, 9:34 AM
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Mike,

As most everyone has stated your problem is probably desense. That is the transmitter is getting back into the receiver making it less sensitive. This is the purpose of the duplexer. You need isolation between the transmitter and the receiver. The minimum amount of isolation needed is dependent on the sensitivity of the receiver and the amount of transmitter power and the frequency separation between the two. The closer the frequencies the more isolation that is required. From your values you needed about 65 db of isolation. Duplexers are rated in both isolation and separation. You need a duplexer that is designed for your separation and the isolation and the amount of power you are running. That takes care of the technical side.

The installation side is just as important if not more so. Connecting the duplexer requires using low loss well shielded cables. The cables must not be of the foil/shield type as they do not have very good isolation. Good quality connectors and perfect installation to the coax is equally important. Depending on the type of duplexer (bandpass/band reject etc) the connecting cables may need to be a specific wavelength. And finally the duplexer needs to be tuned correctly. This requires some specialized (read that expensive) test equipment. Yes, it can be done by ear and a handi-talkie but it won't be correct and you will always have desense. Finally you need experience to spot the "thing" that is causing the problem. Even those of us with experience sometimes have a difficult time identifying that "thing" which is causing us to pull our our hair. For us geeks that is where we get our kicks!

Good luck in identifying the problem!

BB
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Old 08-03-2012, 9:58 AM
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As a test, try turning down the power on the transmitting radio to it’s lowest setting.
If the repeater’s coverage improves you have a de-sense problem.

A high SWR reading on the antenna will cause de-sense too.

I will probably regret this but here goes:

As mentioned above a duplexer allows the separate receiver and transmitter of a repeater to share a single antenna and coax by providing isolation between the two.

Remember, even though the radios are tuned to different frequencies; the receiver still “hears” the RF energy of the transmitter. This RF power overwhelms the receiver, and it cannot “hear” the relatively low level of the remote radio trying to talk into the repeater.

As mentioned in post above, one way to overcome this problem is to use two separate antennas separated by a large amount of open space, like two levels on a tower. The problem with this approach is that the repeater will most likely suffer some form of degraded performance. Whichever component has the upper antenna will cover better. If the TX antenna is the top, the repeater will talk further than it hears or the other way around.

A duplexer solves this problem by electrically providing the same amount of isolation as the open space.

I would be glad to explain how, but that would make for a long post. PM if you want to hear it.


Regards,

JD
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Old 08-07-2012, 6:04 PM
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Fellahs,

Excellent information and advice. Thanks for your thoughtful and well-considered replies.

So, my GMRS-license-holding buddy and I did some work with the repeater yesterday and we figured out the problem. It was indeed a desense issue (probably not much of a surprise there). Where the desense was occurring, however, was a surprise. It wasn't the installation that was flawed, but the testing regimen! I was desensing the repeater "monitor" I had with me in the car as I drove around testing the repeater.

I tested the repeater by using two radios ('A' and 'B') while driving away from the repeater site. When I keyed up the repeater on A, it desensed radio B. It appeared that it was the repeater that was malfunctioning when it was just that the incoming signal from the repeater was getting clobbered locally by my outgoing signal. Problem solved.

I had my buddy drive south of the repeater while I drove north, and the repeater worked perfectly for several miles (we had very good line of sight). When I observed that the repeater seemed to be working fine, it took my buddy about a nano-second to reply, "yeah, dummy, you were desensing your B radio!"

Indeed this is true (on both counts--ha!), but this exercise was meant to be a learning experience. That's part of the fun of this whole radio hobby...learning new things. I've been riding bicycles for over three decades, but I still learn stuff about them I never knew before.

Again, thanks everyone for your patient and professional responses. It's nice to deal with grown-ups in these forums!

Lastly, to close the loop on the original question: Yes, this little repeater controller does work, and so does the mobile duplexer. I have the "larger" duplexer rated for 50W, but the general construction and principle seem to be sound.

Thanks again.

-Mike
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Old 10-25-2012, 7:00 PM
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Hi, I'm brand new to the forum. I've been eyeballing the Radio-Tone for a few days and wonder about its performance. I'd rather not tie up a regular repeater with qso's to my wife. Simplex, from my home base to mobile is about 10 miles reliably. If I set this Radio Tone up will it improve performance to say 20 miles? Or is it like a very local use item? Basically, it's not an actual big repeater where it identifies itself and has to be registered. It's basically a repeater for simplex use, would that be accurate? Does it work with mobile radios?
Thanks!
Chad
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Old 12-16-2012, 7:15 PM
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Default Diplexer vs Duplexer or Cavity Filter

Part of the problem is the dual-use of the term "duplexer".

Some have proposed that "diplexer" be used where a dual-band rig uses two separate antennas or two mono-band rigs share a dual-band antenna.

Then "duplexer" (often truly a cavity filter) only be used to refer to a device designed to control the flow of signals so that the outgoing TX signal is not allowed to get into the RX input side.

This is a same-band repeater duplexer:
UHF 6 Cavity Duplexer 450 520 MHz for Radio Repeater BNC Connector Free Tuning | eBay

This is a same-band repeater Controller:
Radio Tone Duplex Repeater Controller GP300 GP88S | eBay

HTH ... 73, KD4E
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