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Repeater capable GMRS with FRS channels?

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Cambion

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I'm going to be applying for my GMRS license and am looking at the various FRS/GMRS radios. In Spring 2015 I'm going to partake in CERT training (Citizens Emergency Response Team) and I know they make use of the FRS/GMRS radios.

I have looked around and with so many radios, and so many of them NOT repeater capable, I was wondering if anyone has a current model list of those that are. So far I've only found the Motorola MS350R and it's camo sister, the MS355R.

Thanks in advance.
Scott
N6UUH
 
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Rred

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Scott-
While various CERT groups try to make use of all sorts of radios, both FRS and GMRS are arguably improper for CERT operations. CERT is always under the auspices of a local sponsor, which normally is an emergency operations agency. That means CERT should be using government land mobile radio, public service radio, typically a Part90 licensed radio.

FRS is not for business or government operations, so it is WRONG for CERT. Yes, the FCC is generous about ignoring things, but every grade school kid will be using FRS making it pretty useless for true emergency operations. And, hard to tell who is chiming in.

GMRS about the same, but worse because that's licensed for "family" use and each family (actual kinfolk) is supposed to buy a license. Cheaper for your sponsoring agency, or team members, so get a proper Part90 license and properly, using radios and a license that are sanctioned for public safety/government use.

If your sponsor is a PD, FD, or emergency operations agency? Odds are they have the license already and you'll be better off getting surplus radios, or cheapies (like the BaoFeng UV-82C) that can be used legally with their license.

I'd hold off on the radio until you're trained and can bring the subject up with your team and sponsor.

--Red
 

Project25_MASTR

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What Rhed posted.

Those are the only two repeater capable bubble pack radios currently on the market to my knowledge.
 

MTS2000des

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Scott-
While various CERT groups try to make use of all sorts of radios, both FRS and GMRS are arguably improper for CERT operations.

That is merely an OPINION, with no basis in fact. There are plenty of CERT groups using FRS. CERT, according to FEMA, is for CITIZENS to manage their own situation until PROFESSIONAL first responders can take over

https://www.fema.gov/community-emergency-response-teams

What part of this requires CERT teams to use government part 90 radios? Anyone, Bueller? Anyone? While I realize many EMA's like to create area wide "CERT" teams, these are really more AUXCOMM/EMA volunteers. In this case, government radios may be more appropriate, but the O/P did not specify that his CERT training will be used at that level.

As usual, the "FRS Police" are quick to jump in and blast anyone for wanting to use FRS for anything other than "kiddie talkies". FRS is perfectly appropriate for a NEIGHBORHOOD CERT, for example.

That means CERT should be using government land mobile radio, public service radio, typically a Part90 licensed radio.
Again, your opinion is not valid in the case of the majority of localized CERT teams. IMO, those teams have no business on government radio systems. Government radios are for government employees.
FRS is not for business or government operations, so it is WRONG for CERT.

Says where? FRS is license by rule. Here are the rules. Please show me where FRS cannot be used by businesses or governments.

Family Radio Service (FRS) | FCC.gov

Licensing

FRS is licensed by rule. This means an individual license is not required to operate an FRS radio provide you comply with the rules. You may operate an FRS radio regardless of your age, and for personal or for business use if you are not a representative of a foreign government.

So please stop spreading misinformation about FRS.

Same applies with GMRS. Anyone with a valid GMRS license, including government agencies and businesses with grandfathered GMRS licenses, can use GMRS for business/government use. Any NCERT who's families get GMRS licenses can legally use them for CERT operations. Nothing in the rules say otherwise.

I'd hold off on the radio until you're trained and can bring the subject up with your team and sponsor.

About the only sound advice so far.
 

mmckenna

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I'm going to be applying for my GMRS license and am looking at the various FRS/GMRS radios. In Spring 2015 I'm going to partake in CERT training (Citizens Emergency Response Team) and I know they make use of the FRS/GMRS radios.

Before spending any money, find out for sure exactly what they use. My dad is on the CERT team in Gilroy, and they primarily use the 2 meter amateur radio band for their stuff. When they do larger events (Gilroy Garlic Festival) they use radios provided by the city.

FRS/GMRS might be used, but you might find that amateur radio might be more popular with your local team. Find out for sure before spending money. There is also a lot of value in finding out what the team recommends. Commonality between equipment really makes life easier.
 

Cambion

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Before spending any money, find out for sure exactly what they use. My dad is on the CERT team in Gilroy, and they primarily use the 2 meter amateur radio band for their stuff. When they do larger events (Gilroy Garlic Festival) they use radios provided by the city.

FRS/GMRS might be used, but you might find that amateur radio might be more popular with your local team. Find out for sure before spending money. There is also a lot of value in finding out what the team recommends. Commonality between equipment really makes life easier.

First, thank you to MTS2000des for your reply. It saved me having to post the same information, as I've been reading the various FCC rules governing part 90, 95 and 97.

That said, mmckenna, I know that during Field Day operations, all club members are invited to operate radio equipment on frequencies their license does not cover, using the call sign of the club which does cover the band in use. Though I'm almost certain (I'd say 95%) that ham radio cannot be used in CERT operations unless all operators have an amatuer radio license. This is why most CERT programs operate on FRS frequencies.

I do have a Baofeng part 90 radio, and if that's the route my county CERT program uses, then I'm covered. But I'm still interested in FRS/GMRS if not from a CERT perspective, definitely for the ability to keep in touch with my wife should we have a local emergency, or for whatever other purpose we see fit.

Thank you all for the replies. What I understand is the only bubble-pack radios with GMRS repeater coverage are the Motorola series MS350R and MS355R. Are there any recommendations of radios that are not considered cheap bubble-pack?

Regards,
Scott
 

popnokick

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The Garmin Rino GMRS radios are repeater-capable.... and are definitely not "cheap bubble-pack".
 

mmckenna

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Though I'm almost certain (I'd say 95%) that ham radio cannot be used in CERT operations unless all operators have an amatuer radio license.

This is 100% correct. You would need to have an amateur radio license, or someone holding one acting as the person at the controls.

For a decent and inexpensive GMRS radio, take a look at the old Icom F-21gm
 

Rred

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"That is merely an OPINION, with no basis in fact. "
Oh, I said "arguably" and you couldn't figure out that meant I was expressing an opinion? Oh, wait, you did eventually figure that out.
My opinion, as most opinions, is in fact based in fact. It is based on express statements that I have heard from FCC personnel (including one commissioner speaking on the topic) and express writings that the FCC have released on the topic.
As I have said, the FCC have been most generous and liberal about allowing "anything goes" for the purposes of saving life and property. However, they have also gone on the record (and no, I don't keep citations so I won't give you any) as saying that drills and training aren't emergencies, and that government and nosiness organizations, which are specifically in the "emergency" business, should not be relying on ham radio and other services when they do and will have a normal expectation of needing radio services for their normal (including disaster response & emergency) services.

But that's OK, you keep on choosing to apply the most liberal possible interpretations. You go on thinking that the FAMILY RADIO SERVICE (FRS) is somehow proper for a non-family government organization like a CERT team, which has been allocated public mobile land safety frequencies under Part 90 and told to use those frequencies for their routine business operations.

Sooner or later, the FCC's patience and generousity will run out, and then you can take the credit for that as well.

The FACT remains that there is a proper service that has been set aside for PUBLIC SAFETY operations. And while the uninformed can buy and use anything they want, there is pretty much just one radio service that has been set aside and designated as PROPER for public safety use.

But you go ahead, compete with every sixth-grade in the county using the free radio services. You may not think anyone else is entitled to an opinion, or has an educated opinion based on facts, but you might even be entitled to the usual "hams are a herd of cats" point of view. And that's exactly why professional emergency management agencies are sometimes totally against having any hams involved in anything. The rules say, "use this" and you have to argue that their are other ways to do things. The pros don't want to hear that, they want you to use the system, follow the chain of command, and conform to the standards. I can use a Part90 radio in county-wide and state-wide mutual aid situations, with no problems, because all the real agencies have co-ordinated their radio plans and channels, using Part90 Public Safety allocations.

You just try using GMRS or FRS for that, good luck.
 

Cambion

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MTS-
[...]

But that's OK, you keep on choosing to apply the most liberal possible interpretations. You go on thinking that the FAMILY RADIO SERVICE (FRS) is somehow proper for a non-family government organization like a CERT team, which has been allocated public mobile land safety frequencies under Part 90 and told to use those frequencies for their routine business operations.

Sooner or later, the FCC's patience and generousity will run out, and then you can take the credit for that as well.

The FACT remains that there is a proper service that has been set aside for PUBLIC SAFETY operations. And while the uninformed can buy and use anything they want, there is pretty much just one radio service that has been set aside and designated as PROPER for public safety use.

[...]

You just try using GMRS or FRS for that, good luck.

With all due respect Rred, his read of the regulations is 100% accurate. Please take for example this:

Family Radio Service (FRS) | FCC.gov

The FCC web site clearly states that FRS can be used for personal or business use if you are not a representative of a foreign government.

Like it or not, that's the regulation. Part 95.191 through 95.194 govern FRS. In particular is 95.193 'Types of Communications' which does not prohibit business operations. That reinforces what the FCC has placed on their own web page.

If you feel so strongly against the use of FRS to conduct emergency drills, file a complaint with the FCC asking that they change the rules. And rememgber that when CERT does conduct their emergency drills on FRS, 95.193(d) prohibits harmful interference during emergency communications.

Scott
 

Rred

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Scott-
It certainly CAN be. I don't seem to recall saying it was illegal, just inappropriate and ineffective.
A Part90 handheld is typically a 2-watt radio operating on a co-ordinated frequency allocation plan. An FRS is limited to 500mW and every schoolkid--yes, kids have lots of them--may be clowning around on them.

If it works for you, great. But for $30, you can buy the cheapest legal Part90 radios (BaoFeng UV-82C) and for a bit more than twice that, you can buy an old commercial grade like a Motorola. Why screw around with what the kids in grade school are playing with, when there's a whole radio service reserved for public safety use, with no kids, coordinated channel plans, and legal repeaters as well?

I've got a couple of FRS radios in my bag, mainly so I can say "Here, use this" to anyone and not worry about them disrupting comms or knowing anything else. But I shoot for a higher standard when it comes to planned operations and systems. With Part90, I'm tied into county-wide mutual aid, high power repeaters, and professional partners. With FRS? Yeah, I can work around a hundred yards, in the clear, and try to compete with hundreds of other users. Some of them with nothing better to do than play AM radio stations over the air to jam their friends.

Key words: Allocated. Appropriate. Better.

And you don't have to spend $400 to buy one anymore.
 

Project25_MASTR

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The F21GM is a good but sometimes difficult to find radio. The F21 is a little easier though it does not support FPP. Motorola GP300 make great GMRS radios. The Garmin Rino may be repeater capable however, the main reason people purchase them (GPS beaconing) cannot be used on the GMRS side of the radios.
 

mmckenna

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Scott-
It certainly CAN be. I don't seem to recall saying it was illegal, just inappropriate and ineffective.
A Part90 handheld is typically a 2-watt radio operating on a co-ordinated frequency allocation plan.

Most part 90 VHF hand held radios you will find are 5 watts. Most part 90 UHF radios you will find are 4 or 5 watts.
CERT does not have any dedicated/allocated part 90 frequencies. Some cities/counties might allow CERT teams to use frequencies they have licensed, but that is not standardized in any sense of the term.

An FRS is limited to 500mW and every schoolkid--yes, kids have lots of them--may be clowning around on them.

Yet, they'll still work fine if all that is needed is short distance communications. If that is what the CERT team uses, then that is what he needs.

If it works for you, great. But for $30, you can buy the cheapest legal Part90 radios (BaoFeng UV-82C) and for a bit more than twice that, you can buy an old commercial grade like a Motorola.

Again, don't purchase anything until you know what the CERT team uses. Also, don't purchase any Motorola gear, or any radio for that matter, until you fully comprehend what goes into programming them. Find out what others on the CERT team use, and consider purchasing the same. That way you can get local help programming and operating your radio.

Why screw around with what the kids in grade school are playing with, when there's a whole radio service reserved for public safety use, with no kids, coordinated channel plans, and legal repeaters as well?

Ah, NO. Nothing at all wrong with FRS if that is what the CERT team uses. There is NO nationwide coordinated channel plans for CERT, and there isn't any guarantee that the CERT team, or the local agencies, have any repeaters that are available for use. Consider that the local agency might be using a trunked system, and you can't just program up any radio to work on a trunked system, and you certainly don't want to do it without written permission.

I've got a couple of FRS radios in my bag, mainly so I can say "Here, use this" to anyone and not worry about them disrupting comms or knowing anything else.

That is a useful way to use FRS, and a good idea.


But I shoot for a higher standard when it comes to planned operations and systems. With Part90, I'm tied into county-wide mutual aid, high power repeaters, and professional partners.

That might work in your area, but not all CERT teams have access to the city/county radio systems. We shouldn't be suggesting anything until the OP talks to the people who run the CERT team. Also, unless you have a license, or are operating under the agency license, it would be considered transmitting without a license if one was to do this. If you have authorization, then good for you, but don't assume everyone does.

With FRS? Yeah, I can work around a hundred yards, in the clear, and try to compete with hundreds of other users. Some of them with nothing better to do than play AM radio stations over the air to jam their friends.

OK, we all get it. You don't like FRS. No need to keep repeating yourself.

Key words: Allocated. Appropriate. Better.

And you don't have to spend $400 to buy one anymore.

Not necessarily allocated. Might be in your area, doesn't mean that all CERT teams do.
Not necessarily appropriate. If the CERT team doesn't have access to such systems, purchasing that gear isn't necessarily a good idea. It's usually better than the amateur grade stuff, but not always.
Better? See above. I wouldn't consider any of the Chinese $40 radios "better".

Let the poor guy at least join the CERT team and decide if he needs to purchase a radio first.
 

rapidcharger

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But that's OK, you keep on choosing to apply the most liberal possible interpretations. You go on thinking that the FAMILY RADIO SERVICE (FRS) is somehow proper for a non-family government organization like a CERT team, which has been allocated public mobile land safety frequencies under Part 90 and told to use those frequencies for their routine business operations.

Speaking of applying the most liberal possible interpretations... I believe it would take a mighty liberal interpretation of part 90 eligibility to qualify use of part 90 for CERT, and more specifically, the public safety pool that some volunteer organizations seem to think they're eligible to use. Even with a sponsoring agency, licenses are for specifics number of radios, power levels, operating area, and so on. B.Y.O.R. is not really what that radio service was intended for.
 

rapidcharger

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If it works for you, great. But for $30, you can buy the cheapest legal Part90 radios (BaoFeng UV-82C) and for a bit more than twice that, you can buy an old commercial grade like a Motorola. Why screw around with what the kids in grade school are playing with, when there's a whole radio service reserved for public safety use, with no kids, coordinated channel plans, and legal repeaters as well?

I'm also curious as to why you think it's a good idea to use a $30 radio with erroneous part 90 certification or an "old commercial grade" radio in the mission critical public safety pool. An old radio is probably not up to specs anymore and without putting it on a service monitor to make sure, you're chancing it with that too.

Is it because there is the utmost desire to be like the cops and use the same frequencies as them too?
 

MTS2000des

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My opinion, as most opinions, is in fact based in fact. It is based on express statements that I have heard from FCC personnel (including one commissioner speaking on the topic) and express writings that the FCC have released on the topic.

Cite them or go away. You're making it up as you go. The FCC rules are pretty clear as day. If you can't back it up with verifiable statements or copies of emails, I call B.S. There.

However, they have also gone on the record (and no, I don't keep citations so I won't give you any)

Then you are full of Bravo Sierra.

But that's OK, you keep on choosing to apply the most liberal possible interpretations. You go on thinking that the FAMILY RADIO SERVICE (FRS) is somehow proper for a non-family government organization like a CERT team, which has been allocated public mobile land safety frequencies under Part 90 and told to use those frequencies for their routine business operations.

I've already posted the official rules from FCC.gov. I am sorry you seem to have a reading comprehension problem. That is your problem. Please stop spewing this mantra.

I've also posted the link to FEMA.gov which defines what CERT is all about. It is not a GOVERNMENT organization per se, it is training for PRIVATE CITIZENS to manage their affairs immediately during a disaster UNTIL the professional (presumably government) responders arrive to take over.

The FACT remains that there is a proper service that has been set aside for PUBLIC SAFETY operations.

You're right, and despite your interpretation, CERT is an acronym for CITIZENS EMERGENCY RESPONSE TEAM. The first letter CITIZENS means just that, CIVILIAN, NON-GOVERNMENT. If you've actually had CERT training than you'd know this.

WHACKER ALERT! WHACKER ALERT!

But you go ahead, compete with every sixth-grade in the county using the free radio services. You may not think anyone else is entitled to an opinion, or has an educated opinion based on facts, but you might even be entitled to the usual "hams are a herd of cats" point of view. And that's exactly why professional emergency management agencies are sometimes totally against having any hams involved in anything. The rules say, "use this" and you have to argue that their are other ways to do things. T

The fact is CERT is not public safety. I am sorry you think different. Maybe when you get over your light bar fetish and actually grow up and work in the real world, you'll grasp what CERT is all about.

Go join a volly fire department or S/O reserve if you want to play public safety. CERT is for citizens to get trained and take care of their neighborhood, businesses, and community until the professionals can come in. Civilians don't need part 90 radios. Civilians, for the most part, have no business on government radio systems.

And no I won't help you program your APX on your local DTRS, so don't bother asking.
 

Cambion

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I'm also curious as to why you think it's a good idea to use a $30 radio with erroneous part 90 certification or an "old commercial grade" radio in the mission critical public safety pool. An old radio is probably not up to specs anymore and without putting it on a service monitor to make sure, you're chancing it with that too.

Is it because there is the utmost desire to be like the cops and use the same frequencies as them too?

Thank you for your responses. I should also mending to Rred that those cheap $40 radios from China are not compliant with Part 90 of the FCC regulations.

90.203 (g)(2) Requires the transmitter to be programmed for frequencies through controls normally inaccessible to the operator;

Meaning if it can be programmed by the end user out in the field, it cannot be Part 90 certified. About the only thing the cheap radios are good for is Part 97, and even then I would't operate one in the Amatuer Radio Service until I knew for sure the radio was in compliance with bandwidth restrictions. Operating a "dirty" radio is a good way to lose ones ticket.
 

rapidcharger

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Thank you for your responses. I should also mending to Rred that those cheap $40 radios from China are not compliant with Part 90 of the FCC regulations.

90.203 (g)(2) Requires the transmitter to be programmed for frequencies through controls normally inaccessible to the operator;

Meaning if it can be programmed by the end user out in the field, it cannot be Part 90 certified. About the only thing the cheap radios are good for is Part 97, and even then I would't operate one in the Amatuer Radio Service until I knew for sure the radio was in compliance with bandwidth restrictions. Operating a "dirty" radio is a good way to lose ones ticket.

Good point. Although Baofeng/PoFung/MoDung actually did get a part 90 certification granted but it was for some bogus emission designator and at a power level that the radio can't even be programmed to operate at.
Let's just say it would take an awfully "liberal interpretation" to think that's certified for civilian volunteers to go out and hop on someone's public safety system with one. :lol:
 

Cambion

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Good point. Although Baofeng/PoFung/MoDung actually did get a part 90 certification granted but it was for some bogus emission designator and at a power level that the radio can't even be programmed to operate at.
Let's just say it would take an awfully "liberal interpretation" to think that's certified for civilian volunteers to go out and hop on someone's public safety system with one. :lol:

Maybe a robocop would, just so they can walk around and put their friends in awe at having a "police radio". LOL

I did look up the grantee information on the Boafeng 5R. The grant notes are: EF. (This device may contain functions that are not operational in the US Territories except as noted in the filing.) Sadly the declaration letter they filed with the FCC contains false information, pertaining to the programmability. They said the operator cannot program transmit frequencies using the equipments external operations. Which we know is not true.

A lot of bogus and fluff to get something type accepted when the facts don't match the documentation!

Again, much appreciate the exchange.
 

Project25_MASTR

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Maybe a robocop would, just so they can walk around and put their friends in awe at having a "police radio". LOL

I did look up the grantee information on the Boafeng 5R. The grant notes are: EF. (This device may contain functions that are not operational in the US Territories except as noted in the filing.) Sadly the declaration letter they filed with the FCC contains false information, pertaining to the programmability. They said the operator cannot program transmit frequencies using the equipments external operations. Which we know is not true.

A lot of bogus and fluff to get something type accepted when the facts don't match the documentation!

Again, much appreciate the exchange.
It's partially not true. The vfo panel can be completely locked out in the baofeng software. However, most people use chirp to program the radio, which does not offer that option.
 
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