question re, GMRS, linking repeaters allowd? Just curious.

[N9NRA]

Hey there, this has nagged at me for a long time after i heard this happen on our local GMRS repeater around here, what i`m wondering is, is linking of GMRS repeaters (like we can do in the amateur radio service) allowed on the GMRS service or not? I`m just curious, and the guys here really couldn`t tell me much, so i thought i`d ask on here, thanx! N9NRA P.S. What i heard was some kind of link that was being used on the local GMRS repeater, that`s why i was wondering .

[James_Bond_007]

in short. no.

go over to popular wireless and do a search. I have asked all sorts of wacky questions related to setting up a GMRS repeater.

everything from linking repeaters via 802.11 to using an on site voter/receiver and sector antenna's.

from a technical standpoint you can easily link repeater on any band from a legal standpoint it's not possible.

[N9NRA]

Hey thanks James_Bond_007, that pretty much answers my question, i appreicate the help. 73. N9NRA

[n4rpd]

Originally Posted by James_Bond_007

in short. no.
go over to popular wireless and do a search. I have asked all sorts of wacky questions related to setting up a GMRS repeater.
everything from linking repeaters via 802.11 to using an on site voter/receiver and sector antenna's.
from a technical standpoint you can easily link repeater on any band from a legal standpoint it's not possible.

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

Part 95.141 talks about interconnection being prohibited, but read the regulation before talking. It specifically says:

"interconnected to the public switched telephone network except as and in accordance with the requirements and restrictions applied to a wireline control link (see § 95.127)"

Meaning for the purpose of using the POTS (Plain Old Telephone System) for transmission of emissions to/from GMRS stations. If you are using a Remote Base on another GMRS frequency via simplex to make the link then you're golden. If you can make the link via IP cable modem then you're golden. But, if you are using DSL then no you can't. Leased Lines - no you can't. Dial-up modem - no you can't. Because the regulation specifically uses the term "public switched telephone network" and is not inclusive of linking via ANY MEANS, then their narrow definition can be interpreted with broad terms.

"§ 95.141 Interconnection prohibited.
No station in a GMRS system may be
interconnected to the public switched
telephone network except as and in accordance
with the requirements and restrictions
applied to a wireline control
link (see § 95.127). [53 FR 47717, Nov. 25, 1988]"

PLEASE - Read the regulations and do your homework before perpetuating the misinformation that is already out there.

[James_Bond_007]

Here is some reading material....

I will let the original poster and yourself come to your own conclusions

http://www.popularwireless.com/forum...ge=1#Post34370

PopularWireless Personal Wireless Bulletin Board: CFR47 Part15.247 900 MHz GMRS Link

PopularWireless Personal Wireless Bulletin Board: Sectorized repeater antenna's

PopularWireless Personal Wireless Bulletin Board: Connecting GMRS via VoIP

[n4rpd]

Originally Posted by James_Bond_007

Here is some reading material....
I will let the original poster and yourself come to your own conclusions

My original point stands. Using VIOP via a Cable Modem for repeater linking is permissible. I would argue that DSL and Dial-up are not supportable, but the real test would be an FCC Cease and Desist Order.

[Citywide173]

Having done a bit of research on this subject as well, I have to agree with the above poster. In fact, there is even some more confusion in the interpretation, as interconnection to the PSTN is somewhat ambiguous with regards to the original intent. Linking via dedicated phone line or DSL is questionably permissible, as it is believed that the intent was to prevent people from putting up GMRS repeaters with phone patches, effectively competing with the interests of IMTS providers at the time the rules were written, but I'm not sure if I'd test it. ROIP using a cable modem is allowed, and I believe it was on the forums at mygmrs.com where a member actually has made an inquiry about it, and has the opinion in writing from the FCC.

GMRS rules were written in a different technological era, and things such as ROIP, P25 and other digital modes weren't even considerations, and if GMRS was more of an issue to the FCC, you'd probably see the rules rewritten to remove the telephone restriction, as cell phones have made it a moot point, and digital modes are commonplace.

[N2DLX]

Correct, DSL or leased phone lines is not considered PSTN. On DSL, your data ends at the local phone office and goes out over fiber. The DSL data never enters a switch. Dial-up is PSTN, as the data call is still a phone call and goes through the phone switches. So dial-up wouldn't be permissible in any context while DSL and leased (private) lines are.

[n1das]

Originally Posted by N9NRA

is linking of GMRS repeaters (like we can do in the amateur radio service) allowed on the GMRS service or not?

Let's think outside the box for a minute. I think you can link GMRS repeaters together over the air instead of thru an interconnect (already discussed above), however the linking must be in-band, i.e., on the GMRS primary freqs. IIRC, the wording of Part 95 allows a GMRS station to transmit on one of the 467.55 thru 467.725 repeater input freqs for the purposes of talking thru a repeater transmitting on any of the 462.55 thru 462.725 repeater output freqs. I don't have Part 95 rules in front of me but from what I recall, the inputs and outputs aren't necessarily paired, where a repeater's input is ALWAYS 5.000MHz above the output freq. The standard practice has been to use the standard 5MHz offset like in Part 90 radio services but I don't recall reading anything in Part 95 that madates the pairing for GMRS repeaters. The only restriction I found was that simplex operation is prohibited on the 467.xxx MHz GMRS repeater inputs.

Non-standard offset example: I could have a repeater output on 462.625MHz and its input could be on 467.725MHz (a non-standard 5.1MHz offset instead of 5.0MHz). With Motorola's recent introduction of repeater-capable bubble packs, this would effectively keep them from being able to use the repeater. I'm using all commercial gear anyway (Part 90 w/Part 95), so setting up a non-standard repeater split is a non-issue.

In-band linking example: I have a GMRS repeater on 462.550MHz. The (standard) input is 5.000MHz above the output, on 467.550MHz. Is there anything in the rules that says this repeater can't also have a link transmitter that transmits on say 467.725 MHz to talk to another GMRS repeater on 462.725MHz? In this case, my repeater would also have a receiver listening to 462.725MHz to hear that repeater thru my repeater on 550 to complete the 2-way link.

My interpretation is you can link over the air on GMRS but it must be in-band on the GMRS primaries (using FRS to link with is not allowed!).

[gewecke]

Linked repeaters in the gmrs service is prohibited per. fcc rules and regs. This was addressed long ago. However this is allowed in the amateur radio service if that's an option. You could also call a field office if you need a more descriptive explanation.
N9ZAS
WPOK 400

[N2DLX]

Nothing in the rules specifically states linking is not allowed. That's why there's continuing discussion on it. Calling an FCC field office gets you no where. Either they tell you they don't know, or they give you a totally inaccurate answer that has no basis in the Part 95 rules.

[gewecke]

Originally Posted by N2DLX

Nothing in the rules specifically states linking is not allowed. That's why there's continuing discussion on it. Calling an FCC field office gets you no where. Either they tell you they don't know, or they give you a totally inaccurate answer that has no basis in the Part 95 rules.

I agree that they don't go into as much detail as what's needed here to answer the big question;can we or can't we. But I'm simply thinking that getting a fcc field rep on the phone for a conversation about this,shouldn't be that hard. Being sure to note his name and title might be useful if someone were to try a linking project in the gmrs service? If someone was to receive a "notice to cease operation" then quoting a specific official might keep you from getting a fine? Or maybe not. I'm not against trying a linking project,but I am thinking that to undertake a project like this without needed research might result in a violation notice!
Do we want to risk our license or not,I guess is what's really at hand?
N9ZAS
WPOK 400

[n4rpd]

Originally Posted by gewecke

Linked repeaters in the gmrs service is prohibited per. fcc rules and regs. This was addressed long ago. However this is allowed in the amateur radio service if that's an option. You could also call a field office if you need a more descriptive explanation.
N9ZAS
WPOK 400

STOP! What Rule or Regulation in Part 95 are you specifically referring to? Quote it here and I will show you that it refers only to connecting to the switched telephone system, and that regulation was to prevent phone patching over the air. Repeater linking is not prohibited.

[N9NRA]

Hey there, just a bit more info on my OP, the link i heard was brought up and taken down via DTMF tones (like we do in the HAM radio service), that`s kinda what got my curiousity up. Thanx guys! N9NRA

[SkipSanders]

Under 'prohibited communications' in the Part 95 rules, find:

(12) Messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and
transmitted by a GMRS station;

Thus, no station audio can come via any wireline link. Note this doesn't specify the PTSN, it's any wireline link.

[Citywide173]

Originally Posted by SkipSanders

Under 'prohibited communications' in the Part 95 rules, find:

(12) Messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and
transmitted by a GMRS station;

Thus, no station audio can come via any wireline link. Note this doesn't specify the PTSN, it's any wireline link.

Boy, talk about taking the rules out of context to suit your purpose. What you are referring to, Section 95.183 "Prohibited Communications", subsection (a), paragragh (12) refers to what a person (station operator) cannot communicate, meaning that if it has already been sent through a wireline control link to a GMRS transmitter, it cannot be relayed further by another operator. A simple overview of the other 12 items on the list make it obvious it has to do with what a person can or cannot SAY over a GMRS system.

The way you're interpreting the rule, it completely contradicts Section 95.127, "Controlling a station from a remote point", as well as section 95.141 "Interconnection Prohibited", which states that "No station in a GMRS system may be interconnected to the public switched telephone network except as and in accordance with the requirements and restrictions applied to a wireline control link (see § 95.127)." (emphasis added by me)

Section 127, subparagraph (e) states: "(e) Any device used to establish a wireline control link which is attached to the public switched telephone network after April 1, 1976 must be registered with the FCC and must comply with the standards incorporated in a registration program to protect the public switched telephone network from harm (see part 68 of the FCC Rules)."

So section 127 states that as long as you are using Part 68 compliant equipment, a GMRS station may be connected to the public switched telephone network, which completely nullifies the argument in this thread. It IS allowed through direct connection, DSL, dial up, dedicated phone lines, cable modem, or GMRS link.

[SkipSanders]

The FCC rules are rather, shall we say... poorly written.

As it happens, there is no 95.127 section... now. Yes, there is a section that refers to it... but it was deleted long ago, and is not a current part of the rules. 95.127 was last a part of the rules in 1998. It was removed in 1999's rules.

[Citywide173]

Originally Posted by SkipSanders

The FCC rules are rather, shall we say... poorly written.

I'll definitely agree with that.

I understand that section 127 was removed, however, they did leave the reference in section 141, which begs the question of the intent of the word "except", and further investigation shows the now deleted section 127 referring to Part 68 compliant equipment for interconnection purposes. Part 68, as it would apply here, is nothing more than a safety guideline to protect workers that are involved with the PSTN, and the majority of the rules set forth in Part 68 have been relegated to private industry for enforcement (this happened right about the time that section 127 was removed)

It is safe to say that any currently commercially available interconnection equipment would be Part 68 compliant, and deductively, the provisions of section 127, while designed to protect the PSTN and people working on it, have become archaic and almost completely irrelevant. This obviously would not apply to home built equipment, but part 95 is not a service that encourages home brewing, and the belief is that people will buy part 90 or part 95 compliant equipment, which would in all but the rarest of circumstances also be Part 68 compliant.

I'm sure that this is a clerical oversight on the part of the publishing office, and the reference to section 127 under section 141 should have been edited to refer to Part 68 compliance. By following the reference in section 141 to the old section 127 and then further to Part 68, it shows that the intent was not to prohibit interconnection, but rather to ensure that interconnection was performed in a manner that provided safety to PSTN equipment and workers. Based on this, I still hold that linking, via any wireline control means or by using another GMRS frequency is allowed.

[e911god]

Rich...

I say we create the first statewide linked GMRS system in NJ. We have enough repeaters listed on mygmrs.com to obtain pretty substantial coverage.

One of the main reasons why hams link their systems is so as they travel from home to work (65 miles for me), they can still talk back to their home site. Having the ability to do that through GMRS would allow not only other GMRS users but family members covered under their licenses as well.

Anyone up for it ? I know here in NJ, the W2NJR system works pretty good for the hammies...

[countryboy879]

im def up for that !!!!!!