A little novice help please

[Fort_Bragger]

I stumbled upon this forum while searching for some GMRS/FRS/MURS information. I'm actually a Moderator on a similar forum dedicated to fishing. Imhooked.com. I'm also not a radio teckie. I suppose I might be considered clutter here since I use my radios for strickly recreation use. Specifically hunting and fishing. I may also be a one post wonder if I can find the information I'm looking for. This site didn't have a FAQ page, as far as I know, or could locate.

I hunt in Colorado each fall with around 8-10 friends. We use our GMRS/FRS radios to keep in touch for safety. We do have our FCC licenses. We were having some issues with our communications due to our mismatched equipment. I had been using Motorola T6400's. Last year we all bought Midland GXT 661's thinking the five watt in high power mode in GMRS band would increase our range considerably. Wrong. They didn't do as well as our Motorola's. Obviously, power isn't everything with range.

I have a slew of questions. Why would be number one, and please in layman's terms? We have been looking into the Garmin Rhino's for the gps feature. Can someone recommend brands and models that would increase the range over what we experienced with the Midlands? If I were to design my own units, they would be a cross between regular noise suppression ear muffs, Walker Game Ears, that enhance hearing when not transmitting, and a gun report suppression cirrcuit feature to protect what hearing I still have. Viet Nam took most of what I have left. Some features that are critical, are silent squelch, vox is not something that has been found to be helpful. Loud breathing usually makes that not a good option. We also use ear buds. The buds need to have a PPT button large enough to use with warm gloves on. Thank you in advance. This is a cool site. My fishing forum has had 15,000 members at it's peak. 200,000 sounds like a lot of work here. One last question. I haven't been able to find a lot of information on MURS. Is this a new band? Would it be helpful? Crosstalk is an issue we have. My first Motorola 3 mile Talkabouts about ten years ago worked great when there wasn't much radio traffic on the band.

Thanks, Ben.

[UPMan]

GMRS/FRS radio range is limited primarily by terrain. The frequencies used provide line-of-sight communications. In most cases, this means that the maximum range you will get is between 2 blocks and 2 miles. What you'll actually get will also depend on obstacles and foliage.

Generally, more power will result in more range in a "cluttered" terrain (lots of trees). However, you need to look at power ratings provided by some manufacturers with more than a grain of salt. For example, most radios in this class boasting 5 Watts of power are actually putting out about 2 Watts from the antenna. The 5 Watts is what is coming out of the batteries (roughly...purists please don't get too bent on the simplification).

Most radios in this class are going to be limited to a maximum of about 2 watts from the antenna due to some FCC limits intended to reduce human exposure to RF.

Aside from terrain (#1) and power (#2 or 3) the other factor affecting range is sensitivity. A more sensitive radio will be able to receive from a greater distance (making sensitivity also #2 or 3).

If by crosstalk you mean hearing someone not in your group on your channel, that can be easily avoided by using the CTCSS/DCS feature on your radio (usually called "Privacy Codes" or "Quiet Codes" or something similar). Just put everyone in your group on the same code. This can be done across brands, but you might have to read in the specific model's manual to see how their numbering scheme maps to the industry standard nomenclature.

Uniden high-end GMRS/FRS also include a proprietary "Group Mode." If you assign everyone in your group to the same group number, you can give each radio (up to 16 radios) a 4-letter nickname, then call an individual by picking their name. Your call to that one individual won't be heard by anyone else in the group. You can also still talk to everyone in your group at once, and you won't hear any chatter from anyone outside your group. Midland has copied this feature (but they don't alpha tag...you have to remember everyone's radio ID #). The Uniden radios also let you change everyone in your group to a different channel if you are still getting some blocking interference by other users on the same channel.

(Note: To be fair, I should mention that Uniden copied this feature from RadioShack who had the tagless version on a couple of models in 2003. But at that time, I was the one who implemented it at RadioShack...I brought it to Uniden and added the alpha tagging.)

Uniden's newest models are also fully waterproof (rated JIS 7, which means it can survive up to 3 feet underwater for up to 30 minutes). They also float, so if you drop it in the lake you won't have to go diving for it. So, if you get caught in a downpour your radio won't be trashed. Other models touting "waterproof" are actually JIS 4...what most in the industry call "splash resistant." If they actually get soaked, they are destroyed.

MURS is subject to the same limitations for range as GMRS/FRS (or any other line-of-sight service such as marine and business simplex). They are generally more expensive and have fewer channels (only 5 vs 22).

Disclaimer: UPMan means Uniden Product Manager.

[Fort_Bragger]

Thank you UPM. I have a Uniden 625C VHF in my boat, and I simply love the full class D features. Do you have a site for your GMRS/FRS radios where I can look your complete line over? Any plans in the works for a model with the GPS feature too? I like the Garmin's, but I haven't actually held or used one as yet.

What do you think about my idea of a head set (Muffs) GMRS radio model? (remember Walkman's) It would have a noise suppressor for sound above 85 dB, and hearing enhancement while being worn. Pass it on to R&D. It may seam a little wacky, and maybe appeal to a limited market, but the hand held, or shirt pocket models that everyone copies is not convenient or comfortable for my use. Sony did ok with the Walkman. Put am/fm in it too, for a wider market. Making the same old thing as everyone else isn't being bold enough IMO. I also get a lot of VHF questions on my I'mHooked.com site. Your input would greatly be appreciated there.
Imhooked.com, West Coast Fishing
Ben.

[UPMan]

Uniden - Products - Family Radios

but you might also glean more details from the O/M (http://www.uniden.com/pdf/GMR2889-2CKom.pdf is the non-waterproof version; waterproof versions have the same features but are submersible).

[kd8ccy]

You may want to try real radios instead of the bubble pack stuff. A good commercial radio such as the Icom F21 can be had for around $100.00 dollars used and will make a big difference. They even make one called the F21GM that is pre-programmed for GMRS.

Take care,

Mike
kd8ccy
wqcp713

[Fort_Bragger]

Thanks Mike, that'll give me something to look up. Is there a way, or are there aftermarket antenna's to boost the signal strength of the bubble packed units? I don't think the odds of finding 8-10 used Icom's is very probable. I'm not afraid of the RF pickling my brain. I won't be using them that much, and Agent Orange most likely has already done that.
Ben.

[UPMan]

The FCC does not allow the bubble pack types to have any antenna other than the one from the factory.

Even with commercial radios such as the ones Mike suggested, you are limited by terrain (if they are over the hill, they are out of touch). They have the benefit of generally better construction and sometimes more power.

[N1SQB]

Originally Posted by UPMan

GMRS/FRS radio range is limited primarily by terrain. The frequencies used provide line-of-sight communications. In most cases, this means that the maximum range you will get is between 2 blocks and 2 miles. What you'll actually get will also depend on obstacles and foliage.

Generally, more power will result in more range in a "cluttered" terrain (lots of trees). However, you need to look at power ratings provided by some manufacturers with more than a grain of salt. For example, most radios in this class boasting 5 Watts of power are actually putting out about 2 Watts from the antenna. The 5 Watts is what is coming out of the batteries (roughly...purists please don't get too bent on the simplification).

Most radios in this class are going to be limited to a maximum of about 2 watts from the antenna due to some FCC limits intended to reduce human exposure to RF.

Aside from terrain (#1) and power (#2 or 3) the other factor affecting range is sensitivity. A more sensitive radio will be able to receive from a greater distance (making sensitivity also #2 or 3).

If by crosstalk you mean hearing someone not in your group on your channel, that can be easily avoided by using the CTCSS/DCS feature on your radio (usually called "Privacy Codes" or "Quiet Codes" or something similar). Just put everyone in your group on the same code. This can be done across brands, but you might have to read in the specific model's manual to see how their numbering scheme maps to the industry standard nomenclature.

Uniden high-end GMRS/FRS also include a proprietary "Group Mode." If you assign everyone in your group to the same group number, you can give each radio (up to 16 radios) a 4-letter nickname, then call an individual by picking their name. Your call to that one individual won't be heard by anyone else in the group. You can also still talk to everyone in your group at once, and you won't hear any chatter from anyone outside your group. Midland has copied this feature (but they don't alpha tag...you have to remember everyone's radio ID #). The Uniden radios also let you change everyone in your group to a different channel if you are still getting some blocking interference by other users on the same channel.

(Note: To be fair, I should mention that Uniden copied this feature from RadioShack who had the tagless version on a couple of models in 2003. But at that time, I was the one who implemented it at RadioShack...I brought it to Uniden and added the alpha tagging.)

Uniden's newest models are also fully waterproof (rated JIS 7, which means it can survive up to 3 feet underwater for up to 30 minutes). They also float, so if you drop it in the lake you won't have to go diving for it. So, if you get caught in a downpour your radio won't be trashed. Other models touting "waterproof" are actually JIS 4...what most in the industry call "splash resistant." If they actually get soaked, they are destroyed.

MURS is subject to the same limitations for range as GMRS/FRS (or any other line-of-sight service such as marine and business simplex). They are generally more expensive and have fewer channels (only 5 vs 22).

Disclaimer: UPMan means Uniden Product Manager.

UPman;
I have to say, that was a pretty darn good explanation. I knew most of what you posted but if I didnt, your explanation would have "schooled" me right....LOL....Nicely done. My question is why does Uniden knowing that the range of these radios IS limitted, still advertizes the ranges the way they do. Here is one prime example:http://www.uniden.com/products/produ...ter=28%20Miles I have a pair of these. They work great but there is no way I will get 28 miles even in the best of terrain...Of course I never expected that to begin with but there are those people who will take these for what they say on the label,only to be disappointed later.

Manny

Manny

[roadranger]

Mr Bragger, since you already mentioned that you are licensed, you and your friends should try and get in with a man or group in your area with a GMRS repeater, You an your buddies will stiil need Icom or Kenwood Type radios (with respect to Uniden} That will operate duplex frequncies. Meaning, use of a repeater could greatly increase your range, and with permission, you could gain access to may repeaters in your hunting and fishing travels, and in between!

[kd8ccy]

Hi Ben,

What others have said about the bubble pack antenna is correct. I believe it's even against the FCC rules to modify the antenna on them.

The advantage to commercial radios is (as was already said) the better antenna and construction.

I have heard that for radios used in the woods that MURS with 2 watts on VHF is better than GMRS with 5 watts on UHF. I don't have any experience with MURS, but I have had good luck with vhf 2 meter ham radio could get through when a uhf 70 centimeter had troubles.

Whatever you do don't believe the exaggerated range claim. Even with commercial radios you won't get those kinds of distance, unless you are on one mountain top and the person you are talking to is on the other mountain top, and everything it just right. Then you might get across the valley.

Take care,

Mike
kd8ccy
wqcp713

[kayn1n32008]

Originally Posted by Fort_Bragger

I hunt in Colorado each fall with around 8-10 friends.

Thanks, Ben.

I think that this is the most important part.

Depending on how long you are hunting, i would suggest renting Vhf radios from a shop local to where you hunt.
5w Vhf simplex will do alot better in the bush/mountians than 4w Uhf simplex.
I work in the bush and our company gives each survey crew a pair of Vhf hand helds for when working out of earshot of each other or when helos are used for transportation to/from work site.

[ihcollector]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8310/4.5.0.110 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/-1 UP.Link/6.3.1.20.06.3.1.20.0)

I use HYT commercial UHF radios on GMRS (you can get a 16ch for @$100.00 new). They work great for me on simplex. I also use them with a portable repeater I take with me and use with either a magnet mount antenna or a no-groundplane antenna pulled up into a tree by rope for even better range. Definately a bigger investment, but the improvement in coverage may be worth the investment to you.

[kayn1n32008]

Originally Posted by ihcollector

I use HYT commercial UHF radios on GMRS (you can get a 16ch for @$100.00 new). They work great for me on simplex. I also use them with a portable repeater I take with me and use with either a magnet mount antenna or a no-groundplane antenna pulled up into a tree by rope for even better range. Definately a bigger investment, but the improvement in coverage may be worth the investment to you.

The OP seems like more of a casual radio user than a 'power' user, having a portable repeater seems like a lot of extra work, mostly because you have to stage the equipment.

I survey using RTK GPS and if it is all possible I try to keep our base as close to our truck as possible or where we can pull up next to our base, mostly due to needing a marine deepcycle battery to power the 25w Uhf datalink radio. If we have to take our RTK base any farther than 5metres from our truck we put it on a quad to move it any distance efficently.

Unless you plan to use a very low power repeater ie: 5watts or less(at the Tx radio, not power out of duplexer) it is just too cumbersome to lug around all the equipment for a repeater. even if you make a repeater to fit in a pelican case you are still needing atleast 3 seperate parts for the repeater. 1. Power source 2. Repeater 3. Antenna system.

[gewecke]

Originally Posted by N1SQB

UPman;
I have to say, that was a pretty darn good explanation. I knew most of what you posted but if I didnt, your explanation would have "schooled" me right....LOL....Nicely done. My question is why does Uniden knowing that the range of these radios IS limitted, still advertizes the ranges the way they do. Here is one prime example:Uniden | A World Without Wires - GMR2889-2CK I have a pair of these. They work great but there is no way I will get 28 miles even in the best of terrain...Of course I never expected that to begin with but there are those people who will take these for what they say on the label,only to be disappointed later.

Manny

Manny

Manny,I think it's got a lot to do with advertising and hoping that someone doesn't call these manufacturers on their bogus claims! You and I know they won't live up to 28 miles under any conditions,but freddy needtoknow down the street hasn't a clue he was just screwed by poor advertising claims!
N9ZAS

[kayn1n32008]

Originally Posted by gewecke

Manny,I think it's got a lot to do with advertising and hoping that someone doesn't call these manufacturers on their bogus claims! You and I know they won't live up to 28 miles under any conditions,but freddy needtoknow down the street hasn't a clue he was just screwed by poor advertising claims!
N9ZAS

about the only way your going to get 28miles is mountian top to mountian top. and probably not even that far

[UPMan]

We test all of our radios in an area SW of the DFW metroplex (near Glen Rose). We test out to the rated range. The test range is a clear line-of-sight for the entire distance, and it has a pretty low RF noise floor. If we cannot get comms, we don't make the claim.

We also explain on the packaging what the realistic range expectations should be under various conditions (including a nice pictoral).

[ihcollector]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8310/4.5.0.110 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/-1 UP.Link/6.3.1.20.06.3.1.20.0)

Originally Posted by UPMan

We test all of our radios in an area SW of the DFW metroplex (near Glen Rose). We test out to the rated range. The test range is a clear line-of-sight for the entire distance, and it has a pretty low RF noise floor. If we cannot get comms, we don't make the claim.

We also explain on the packaging what the realistic range expectations should be under various conditions (including a nice pictoral).

Large print for the 'Realistic Range'?? :-)

[UPMan]

About the same size as everything else except headers.

[peepoop]

Ice burn!

[mrweather]

Just a thought: if you're out on the water why can't you use portable VHF marine radios? They typically put out 5 watts as well but have much farther range than the GMRS/FRS bubble packs.