GMRS Repeater going up

mrhamradio · #1 (**permalink**) 10-20-2009, 04:14 PM

Hello all,
Just wondering about the rules and regs on putting up a GMRS repeater. I have a near new UHF repeater with antenna and duplexer ready to put up at about 150 feet. I have my GMRS license, do I need to put that on the repeater with a CW id'er or do the users use their call sign? I'm thinking that I need to put some kind of an id on it. I'm wanting to make this an open system for any licensed user to use in my area. Looking for comments and ideas.
Thanks in advance.
Eric.

gman4661 · #2 (**permalink**) 10-21-2009, 07:58 AM

Just curious, but what state are you in?

mrhamradio · #3 (**permalink**) 10-21-2009, 04:34 PM

The system will be here in Sarasota, Florida. It will be on top of a condo right on the beach. Hoping that some winter visitors will be able to use, plus a few locals here.

SkipSanders · #4 (**permalink**) 10-22-2009, 03:28 AM

The basic rules are, there must be a control operator at all times (no automatic operation), and you must have a written record of all users authorized to use the system.

Obviously, the control operator is responsible for ID'ing the machine.

spd640 · #5 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkipSanders

The basic rules are, there must be a control operator at all times (no automatic operation), and you must have a written record of all users authorized to use the system.

Obviously, the control operator is responsible for ID'ing the machine.

I see no where you have to keep a record of users,the only requirement to use GMRS is to be licensed and have the repeater owners permission to use his repeater and the control operator is a must but isn't responsible for IDing the repeater the licensed users themselves are responsible and supposed to ID every 15 minutes when using the repeater and a automated ID isn't required and often discouraged.

gewecke · #6 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 01:47 PM

A GMRS repeater is required to be identified by the call sign of the user which it is licensed to. No exceptions to this,and a cw id device is usually incorporated into the controller board which IS strongly encouraged.
N9ZAS

SkipSanders · #7 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 02:05 PM

Actually, it turns out the repeater does not have to ID itself (though it's a good idea anyway) as long as the repeated station does ID itself.

Sec. 95.119 Station identification.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (e), every GMRS station must
transmit a station identification:
(1) Following the transmission of communications or a series of
communications; and
(2) Every 15 minutes during a long transmission.
(b) The station identification is the call sign assigned to the GMRS
station or system.
(c) A unit number may be included after the call sign in the
identification.
(d) The station identification must be transmitted in:
(1) Voice in the English language; or
(2) International Morse code telegraphy.
(e) A station need not identify its transmissions if it
automatically retransmits communications from another station which are
properly identified.
[48 FR 35237, Aug. 3, 1983, as amended at 63 FR 68975, Dec. 14, 1998]

Sec. 95.33 Cooperative use of radio stations in the GMRS.

(a) Licensees (a licensee is the entity to which the license is
issued) of radio stations in the GMRS may share the use of their
stations with other entities eligible in the GMRS, subject to the
following conditions and limitations.
(1) The station to be shared must be individually owned by the
licensee, jointly owned by the participants and the licensee, leased
individually by the licensee, or leased jointly by the participants and
the licensee.
(2) The licensee must maintain access to and control over all
stations authorized under its license.
(3) A station may be shared only:
(i) Without charge;
(ii) On a non-profit basis, with contributions to capital and
operating expenses including the cost of mobile stations and paging
receivers prorated equitably among all participants; or
(iii) On a reciprocal basis, i.e., use of one licensee's stations
for the use of another licensee's stations without charge for either
capital or operating expenses.
(4) All sharing arrangements must be conducted in accordance with a
written agreement to be kept as part of the station records.
(b) [Reserved]

[48 FR 35237, Aug. 3, 1983, as amended at 63 FR 68975, Dec. 14, 1998]

The FCC doesn't pay much attention to the written records part, true... but it is in the regulations.

N_Jay · #8 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 02:31 PM

So open GMRS repeaters are basically not within the rules.
Interesting.

SkipSanders · #9 (**permalink**) 10-24-2009, 02:44 AM

Nothing says you need signed papers or the like, only that any new user must get specific permission, and the repeater owner must record the callsign of the stations allowed to use the system.

'Open' means anyone is allowed to use it, rather than there being fixed limits like 'paying member of organization X'. As long as anyone with a license is allowed to ask and receive permission, it's open.

It might be well to consider the actual FCC intended purpose of the GMRS, which is not general communications with everyone in the area:

(a) The GMRS is a land mobile radio service available to persons for
short-distance two-way communications to facilitate the activities of
licensees and their immediate family members. Each licensee manages a
system consisting of one or more stations.

While those activities may involve chatting with others than the licensee's family, it's not really a central intention of the service, to the FCC. The 'short distance' part would be one reason why linking repeaters into very wide area systems is not within the intent of the rules, either.

N_Jay · #10 (**permalink**) 10-24-2009, 09:37 AM

If the permission has to be in WRITING, then how does an "open" repeater owner manage that process.

My guess is "not".

spd640 · #11 (**permalink**) 10-24-2009, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gewecke

A GMRS repeater is required to be identified by the call sign of the user which it is licensed to. No exceptions to this,and a cw id device is usually incorporated into the controller board which IS strongly encouraged.
N9ZAS

A GMRS repeater is not required to be identified but requires a control operator at all times the repeater is in service,the person/persons actively using the repeater have to identify themselves every 15 minutes,the FCC does not issue a GMRS repeater license anymore there.

gewecke · #12 (**permalink**) 10-24-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spd640

A GMRS repeater is not required to be identified but requires a control operator at all times the repeater is in service,the person/persons actively using the repeater have to identify themselves every 15 minutes,the FCC does not issue a GMRS repeater license anymore there.

True. From the technical standpoint,there is another good reason to set your repeater up with a controller to allow it to "auto id" your call every 15 minutes whether it's in use or not. Kids and people NOT smart enough to read the directions that came with their gmrs/frs bubble pak radios are less likely to use that channel when they hear the id transmit because they don't understand what it is,therefore they go away!

This beats trying to educate a bunch of soccer moms and her kids that a license is needed to use ch.15-22.
N9ZAS

spd640 · #13 (**permalink**) 10-24-2009, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gewecke

True. From the technical standpoint,there is another good reason to set your repeater up with a controller to allow it to "auto id" your call every 15 minutes whether it's in use or not. Kids and people NOT smart enough to read the directions that came with their gmrs/frs bubble pak radios are less likely to use that channel when they hear the id transmit because they don't understand what it is,therefore they go away!

This beats trying to educate a bunch of soccer moms and her kids that a license is needed to use ch.15-22.
N9ZAS

You have a point there,the only reason I would not like the ID would be the constant CW in the middle of the night since my radio stays on 24/7.

gewecke · #14 (**permalink**) 10-24-2009, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spd640

You have a point there,the only reason I would not like the ID would be the constant CW in the middle of the night since my radio stays on 24/7.

So do I. A way to remedy that problem is to make sure the repeater id's using carrier squelch instead of tone,this way it doesn't wake you!

We do this with some public safety stuff here.
N9ZAS

RKG · #15 (**permalink**) 10-25-2009, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spd640

You have a point there,the only reason I would not like the ID would be the constant CW in the middle of the night since my radio stays on 24/7.

1) Depending on your controller, you can program it to send the CWID without tone, or with a tone other than the one you use for voice communciations; in either case, you won't hear it on your receiver.

2) Again depending on your controller, there is no need to, and no reason to, send the CWID unless the radio has been keyed for voice within the last 15 minutes.

intermod · #16 (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 01:54 PM

If your repeater is located in a congested area it is not a good idea to automatically ID at regular intervals when it is not in use. This type of activity is known in GMRS as "beaconing" and is usually discouraged (but it is not against the rules, however). While it tends to walk on unlicensed bubble-packers (oh well...), it can also cover other repeaters.

The only way to avoid this is to have an auxiliary receiver at the repeater site on the output frequency, configured to lock-out the repeater transmitter when it hears a co-channel station. But with all the strong buble-pack traffic, this woudl create otehr problems...

If you are the only repeater around than it does not matter.

I agree that sending the repeater ID without CTCSS is a good idea - this is what I do here.

intermod

gewecke · #17 (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 03:38 PM

It seems at least for now that "auto id" or beaconing seems to be the answer to educating the little buggers to stay below their ch.15. Trying to talk to them is pointless and futile when they seem to think because wal mart "said they could" it's gospel!

N9ZAS

spd640 · #18 (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 04:14 PM

Walmart doesn't like you talking on "their frequency" MURS but hey its legal so there,who says I can't use the same pl tone...lol

gewecke · #19 (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spd640

Walmart doesn't like you talking on "their frequency" MURS but hey its legal so there,who says I can't use the same pl tone...lol

What pl tone? Most of the wal marts that use murs are carrier squelch as far I know?
Oops, I'm off topic anyway Iguess.
N9ZAS

spd640 · #20 (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gewecke

What pl tone? Most of the wal marts that use murs are carrier squelch as far I know?
Oops, I'm off topic anyway Iguess.
N9ZAS

the ones local to me use 100.0 on 154.600,I got a friend to key the radio up while I searched the pl and he uses his radio 3 counties around me and it works for all of them.