Base Antenna for PSR-800

[steve888]

I have a PSR-800 with an Austin Condor antenna and I'm having a problem receiving P25 transmissions indoors. Outdoors my reception is great but indoors I only get maybe 25% of P25 stuff. I don't have any problems receiving non-P25 signals indoors at all.

I'm currently renting a home and it's a lot of work to get my local HOA to approve an outside antenna for the roof. A few people have told me I could take an external base antenna and just put it in my attic or anywhere in my house and it would probably solve the problem. Does that make sense and would it work?

My house has vinyl siding and I can receive non-P25 transmissions indoors from as far away as 18-22 miles (just with the Austin Condor antenna).

So, would an external antenna (used indoors) help with the P25 issue? Thanks for any comments or suggestions!

[IowaGuy1603]

First of all , have you tried just using the stock antenna?

My 800 receives P25 signals from 15-20 miles away with no problem using the duck that came with it sitting on my desk inside my house.

An outside antenna SHOULD get better reception, and an outside antenna in your attic might get better reception................but to get optimal reception you need an antenna cut for the specific band you wish to receive.

I get good reception using a 2meter/70cm duck from one of my ham HT's also----

I have a P25 system that sits about 22 miles from me(at leafst one tower does) and can't receive it at all even using my roof mounted dual band ham omni......but if I drive 10 miles toward the tower I can pick it up in my car with the ducky or using a mag mount RS scanner antenna.

Speaking of which-------------try a mag mount scanner antenna attached to your refrigerator & see if that helps your reception .......

[steve888]

Originally Posted by IowaGuy1603

First of all , have you tried just using the stock antenna?

My 800 receives P25 signals from 15-20 miles away with no problem using the duck that came with it sitting on my desk inside my house.

An outside antenna SHOULD get better reception, and an outside antenna in your attic might get better reception................but to get optimal reception you need an antenna cut for the specific band you wish to receive.

I get good reception using a 2meter/70cm duck from one of my ham HT's also----

I have a P25 system that sits about 22 miles from me(at leafst one tower does) and can't receive it at all even using my roof mounted dual band ham omni......but if I drive 10 miles toward the tower I can pick it up in my car with the ducky or using a mag mount RS scanner antenna.

Speaking of which-------------try a mag mount scanner antenna attached to your refrigerator & see if that helps your reception .......

Thanks for your suggestions! Yes, I have tried both the stock antenna and the Austin Condor and there's no difference between the two of them. Outdoors the Austin is definitely better than the stock antenna but indoors they are both fairly equal (in the sense that they both only pick up about 25% of the P25 traffic). Usually I'll get the first part of a transmission but eventually most of what I pick up garbles off into nothing.

I've also tried placing the scanner in different parts of the house and that doesn't help at all (near windows, doors, and even in places where you wouldn't think the reception would be that great).

I've been planning on getting a roof mounted mag antenna for my car so when I do I'll try using that indoors like you've suggested. No sense in spending a lot of money on a high end outdoor antenna if there's a chance it might not even help. Thanks again for your suggestions!

[Ed_Seedhouse]

Originally Posted by steve888

I've been planning on getting a roof mounted mag antenna for my car so when I do I'll try using that indoors like you've suggested. No sense in spending a lot of money on a high end outdoor antenna if there's a chance it might not even help.

Mag mounts rely on capacitive coupling to a fairly large area of metal to work well. Sticking a mag mount up in the air without a proper counterpoise is not helpful to their performance.

I got good results from coupling a mag mount via an electrical box to 8 30" radials, but it was a jury rig setup.

Also, mag mounts are not truly wide band. Around my location this means little since there is basically nothing above 500 mhz, but if you want to monitor frequencies up in the 800 mhz band along with others in the 100-200 mhz band you need something wide band. Discone antennas work well for this and can be purchased at low cost. They are rather ugly, though, and you might freak out your neighbours.

I get excellent results with a Jetstream JTB-3 mounted 15 feet off the ground in my backyard, but once again there is basically nothing much beyond 500 mhz nearby where I live on southern Vancouver Island.

[IowaGuy1603]

Originally Posted by Ed_Seedhouse

Mag mounts rely on capacitive coupling to a fairly large area of metal to work well. Sticking a mag mount up in the air without a proper counterpoise is not helpful to their performance.

I got good results from coupling a mag mount via an electrical box to 8 30" radials, but it was a jury rig setup.

Also, mag mounts are not truly wide band. Around my location this means little since there is basically nothing above 500 mhz, but if you want to monitor frequencies up in the 800 mhz band along with others in the 100-200 mhz band you need something wide band. Discone antennas work well for this and can be purchased at low cost. They are rather ugly, though, and you might freak out your neighbours.

I get excellent results with a Jetstream JTB-3 mounted 15 feet off the ground in my backyard, but once again there is basically nothing much beyond 500 mhz nearby where I live on southern Vancouver Island.

In my area a mag mount works very well attached to a refrigerator............. or a filing cabinet.
The basic Radio Shack
Magnet-mount mobile scanner antenna : Mobile Scanner Antennas | RadioShack.com

works quite well on a PSR 800 with VHF, UHF and 800 mHz police radios

[Ed_Seedhouse]

Originally Posted by IowaGuy1603

In my area a mag mount works very well attached to a refrigerator............. or a filing cabinet.

Little hard to mount that 'fridge on a mast outside the house, though.

Most file cabinets are a little too small for a good ground plane at VHF. At 160 mhz your antenna needs to be in the middle of about a 3 foot diameter metal groundplane for an effective counterpoise. Of course at UHF and above that's not a problem.

But for the most effective use of an antenna you really need to get it outside and up on a pole. Of course we don't all have the luxury of that possibility and we make do with what we can get.

[IowaGuy1603]

No but the whole Idea is he CANT mount an outside antenna.

Which is why I was giving him ideas he actually can use.

The mag mounts works very well on a filing cabinet at 155 ,mhz...............I do it all the time and get excellent results when traveling

[steve888]

Originally Posted by IowaGuy1603

No but the whole Idea is he CANT mount an outside antenna.

Which is why I was giving him ideas he actually can use.

The mag mounts works very well on a filing cabinet at 155 ,mhz...............I do it all the time and get excellent results when traveling

Yes, this is definitely a problem. I'm renting the house I live in and in order to mount an antenna on the roof or anywhere outside in the yard, I have to do the following (in order to meet HOA guidelines):

- Get written permission from the homeowner/landlord
- Get written permission from two of my neighbors (showing they're okay with it)
- Submit these three letters to the HOA for their review

They would probably approve it but they have the discretion to deny it if they want. If it was one of those discone antennas they might not approve that (due to the way it looks).

Anyway, it would be a major pain in the $%#& to have to go through all of this so that's why I'm trying to find something that would work in my attic or some other part of my house inside.

[Ed_Seedhouse]

Originally Posted by steve888

Yes, this is definitely a problem. I'm renting the house I live in and in order to mount an antenna on the roof or anywhere outside in the yard, I have to do the following

Do you have access to the attic?

[steve888]

Originally Posted by Ed_Seedhouse

Do you have access to the attic?

Yes, but I've never stuck my head up in there with a flashlight to see how much room I'd have for an antenna. I will do that in the morning and report back on the dimensions!

[Ed_Seedhouse]

Originally Posted by steve888

Yes, but I've never stuck my head up in there with a flashlight to see how much room I'd have for an antenna. I will do that in the morning and report back on the dimensions!

While you do that check to see that the wall studs aren't metal. A metal roof would also be bad, as would stucco siding. If you don't have any of those and there's space it would likely be the best spot to put a small antenna if outside is verboten.

Also, what frequency ranges are you interested in? The higher the frequency the shorter the antenna can be.

Given that there's enough space and there's no metal around to mess thing up, then it might be an ideal location for a discone antenna. These can be had for very little money and will cover a wide frequency range. A hidden location like your attic would be best for these as they rather resemble metal aliens!

[MK]

Renting a home may present a more important problem: are you allowed to modify the structure for the cable path? Drilling a hole in a ceiling or cutting a hole in a wall might violate the terms of your lease. Read that document prior to doing anything else.

[steve888]

Originally Posted by Ed_Seedhouse

While you do that check to see that the wall studs aren't metal. A metal roof would also be bad, as would stucco siding. If you don't have any of those and there's space it would likely be the best spot to put a small antenna if outside is verboten.

Also, what frequency ranges are you interested in? The higher the frequency the shorter the antenna can be.

Given that there's enough space and there's no metal around to mess thing up, then it might be an ideal location for a discone antenna. These can be had for very little money and will cover a wide frequency range. A hidden location like your attic would be best for these as they rather resemble metal aliens!

Thanks, Ed, for all of your help! The home is a rowhome/townhouse and I'm one of the units in the middle (I have neighbors on each side). There's vinyl siding on the exterior walls and that doesn't interfere with reception like aluminum siding would. The roof is just your standard plyboard roof with tar and shingles on the top.

As for the attic, there are no metal wall studs and there's plenty of room for an external antenna. It's an A-frame roof and from the room ceiling to the top of the attic I'd say it's about 9 feet at the center of the A (the highest point) and then it slopes down from there on the sides.

Do you think something like this would be a good choice:

https://www.scannermaster.com/WBD_40.../13-540456.htm

If not, I'm open to suggestions. Thanks again to everyone for your assistance!

Oh, and to "MK"...no worries...in the hallway on the upper floor there's a premade cut in the ceiling about 36"X36" that is covered by a piece of particle board with insulation on the other side. To get to the attic, you simply push this board straight up and to the side and that gives you enough room to crawl inside or poke your head in.

[IowaGuy1603]

I have a similar antenna set up for my conventional scanner........on a pole outside my house......it works well but is in a position that it wouldn't help my P25 needs much.........

As an added plus I can hook a Ham HT to it and transmit if I wish.......

From your description it (one one like it) should fit in your attic.

[Ed_Seedhouse]

Originally Posted by steve888

Do you think something like this would be a good choice:
https://www.scannermaster.com/WBD_40.../13-540456.htm

Looks good, though you can get cheaper discones that will also work well. If it's within your range then it looks like a perfectly good choice. Get the top as close to the peak of your roof as you can. Cable will cost you extra, and you'll need to consider if the terms of your lease will let you run it to your radio efficiently. Me, I live alone and don't mind cable that runs along the floor, but you may not be in the same position.

If you have a multipath problem the discone won't help, being omnidirectional. But it will have gain over the built in rubber ducky.

By the way for receive, 75 ohm cable works well and low loss 75 ohm is cheap. You'll likely need an adaptor from an "F" connector to PL259 and another one for "F" to BNC at the radio end. Or you can get a custom cable from somewhere.

[Audiodave1]

I have a long history with attic mounted antennas...and still use them with my outdoor antennas.

Based on what you are describing it sounds like you have a great shot at improving reception using that space. IMO, if using a quality antenna tuned to the band of interest (could be an omni or a yagi) the difference between attic and a little higher outside would not be much. If you are already receiving transmitters from close to 20mi away you are at the edge already.

You would need a significant height improvement and very high quality coax to negate the losses associated with a 40-50' run. You could come out with 0 net gain in signal at the end of the day if you are not careful above 500Mhz.

Digital is far harder to receive @ distance than analog. Less tolerance to missing bits.

Try the attic first.

As for running cables, when I rented a place like yours I cut a small hole inside a closet ceiling and repaired it before moving out. BTW, Belden1694 is great 75ohm, RG6 size cable.

I placed some planks in the attic to walk on, used tripod stands (usually used for portable speakers) for mounting antennas on rotors.

I got fancy with fishing line for suspending simple ground plane antennas from the ceiling.

The attachments show my current (4 antennas) and past (all the antennas) in the attic.

I had no issues unless the roof was ice covered, snow..no biggie, just reduced long distance reception a little.

Last note, remember to ground your attic antennas.

Dave

[steve888]

Originally Posted by Ed_Seedhouse

Looks good, though you can get cheaper discones that will also work well. If it's within your range then it looks like a perfectly good choice. Get the top as close to the peak of your roof as you can. Cable will cost you extra, and you'll need to consider if the terms of your lease will let you run it to your radio efficiently. Me, I live alone and don't mind cable that runs along the floor, but you may not be in the same position.

If you have a multipath problem the discone won't help, being omnidirectional. But it will have gain over the built in rubber ducky.

By the way for receive, 75 ohm cable works well and low loss 75 ohm is cheap. You'll likely need an adaptor from an "F" connector to PL259 and another one for "F" to BNC at the radio end. Or you can get a custom cable from somewhere.

Thanks again for all of the tips and pointers, Ed...I really appreciate it!

[steve888]

Originally Posted by Audiodave1

I have a long history with attic mounted antennas...and still use them with my outdoor antennas.

Based on what you are describing it sounds like you have a great shot at improving reception using that space. IMO, if using a quality antenna tuned to the band of interest (could be an omni or a yagi) the difference between attic and a little higher outside would not be much. If you are already receiving transmitters from close to 20mi away you are at the edge already.

You would need a significant height improvement and very high quality coax to negate the losses associated with a 40-50' run. You could come out with 0 net gain in signal at the end of the day if you are not careful above 500Mhz.

Digital is far harder to receive @ distance than analog. Less tolerance to missing bits.

Try the attic first.

As for running cables, when I rented a place like yours I cut a small hole inside a closet ceiling and repaired it before moving out. BTW, Belden1694 is great 75ohm, RG6 size cable.

I placed some planks in the attic to walk on, used tripod stands (usually used for portable speakers) for mounting antennas on rotors.

I got fancy with fishing line for suspending simple ground plane antennas from the ceiling.

The attachments show my current (4 antennas) and past (all the antennas) in the attic.

I had no issues unless the roof was ice covered, snow..no biggie, just reduced long distance reception a little.

Last note, remember to ground your attic antennas.

Dave

Wow, Dave, thanks a lot for all of this info. I'm taking notes! It looks like you have one heckuva set up in that attic of yours. You've given me a lot of ideas. I was just going to place a discone antenna in there on a stand of some sort but you've taken it to a new level.

Too bad you're not in the Northern VA area...I'd be willing to pay you to come over and hook up a rig like that in my attic. Thanks again for all of the comments and advice...time to do some research on all of this!

[wingmaker]

I have a 800 mhz yagi I got from http://www.cellantenna.com/index.php?id=yagi and it picks up a 800mhz very well I didnt try in an attic but I thing it would work good, not very long and cheap, you should have no problem picking it up with that I also have LMR 400 Coax. Also if have an extra 15 dollars pick up a 10 db amp from menards http://www.menards.com/main/electric...201-c-6295.htm it works good, they also have a 4 way splitted one its good, but not as good in gain as the the first. I gained around 1 to 2 bars of signal strength, more to the 2 bars on most.

Thats some awesome stuff there AudioDave1

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