LAPD "Toggle B"

[Radio_Lady]

I'm starting this as a separate thread, splitting it off the LA County Jail Monitoring thread

Also, I hear LAPD use the term "switch to toggle B" quite often, is there sonething Im missing? Is my scanner capable of switching tone's?

I've heard that recently, too, and have been wondering if just maybe they are trying a backwards way to get the officers to differentiate between simplex and duplex. It will be all but impossible to erase from their collective minds the habit of calling their division Enhanced/Fallback frequency "Simplex" after all the years it WAS really simplex, so perhaps they'll just leave that be and get them to realize that one toggle position is for nearby comms, and the other is for more distant calling (through the repeater). I haven't seen their new radios so that's just a wild guess until someone who knows can jump in here.

Almost 30 years after they quit using KMA367 as a dispatch and mobile callsign for patrol, the officers still say "KMA" most of the time.after lengthy messages, even though the vast majority of officers on the street today weren't on the job, and many weren't even born yet, when that change happened.

 

[mrbekhor]

is there a way to adjust a scanner to listen to the lapd toggle b? is it a different frequency maybe?Because I know what the toggles are i've had an officer tell me but there has got to be a way to listen to what they say.

 

[Radio_Lady]

is there a way to adjust a scanner to listen to the lapd toggle b? is it a different frequency maybe?Because I know what the toggles are i've had an officer tell me but there has got to be a way to listen to what they say.

After posting my previous message, I remembered that the Astro Saber radios used an A/B toggle that selected simplex in the A position and duplex (repeater) in the B position. It was a semi-circular switch on the same shaft as the channel-select knob.

If that's what the current Toggle does, you would listen to the same frequency either way, but you have to be within simplex range to hear "Toggle A" transmissions. Above 470 MHZ, duplex input frequencies are 3 MHz higher than the output frequency

 

[inigo88]

is there a way to adjust a scanner to listen to the lapd toggle b? is it a different frequency maybe?Because I know what the toggles are i've had an officer tell me but there has got to be a way to listen to what they say.

"Toggle B" would appear to be referring to the 3 position ABC switch on the top of the Motorola XTS5000 portables. You can see it in this picture:

It sounds like they programmed the A-position to be regular repeater operation and the B-position to be simplex/direct (talkaround). Since they call the enhanced/fallback channels simplex (which they're not), they needed another way to say "switch to ACTUAL simplex!"

To hear it you simply need to be listening to the correct enhanced/fallback channel and be close enough to receive the simplex transmission.

Edit: Radio_Lady says it was backwards, and presumably they stuck with the same lettering as the Sabers. I just assumed you heard "switch to toggle B" on the repeated Enhanced/Fallback, and then didn't hear them anymore.

 

[Radio_Lady]

"Toggle B" would appear to be referring to the 3 position ABC switch on the top of the Motorola XTS5000 portables. You can see it in this picture:

Edit: Radio_Lady says it was backwards, and presumably they stuck with the same lettering as the Sabers. I just assumed you heard "switch to toggle B" on the repeated Enhanced/Fallback, and then didn't hear them anymore.

Thank you inigo88. Those were both just assumptions on my part, about the "toggle" serving the simplex/duplex function and that A and B positions are the same as on the Saber IIIs. I should know better than to assume anything logical there though.

Below is a drawing from my friend Harry, showing the Sabers' AB toggle switch. The little memory-jogger they used about A vs B was that "A is for talkAround, and B is for Base" (i.e. thru a "base station/repeater") As if anyone other than a radiophile would even remember what THAT meant.

 

[inigo88]

Ahh the "concentric ring" switch! On the XTS5000 that became the open circle / closed circle switch, usually used for enabling / disabling encryption (if available). I'm not sure what LAPD would use it for (if they use it). It was always disabled on the XTSes I've used in the past. Thanks for the Saber diagram, I've never gotten to play with any of those.

 

[KMA367]

Don't start feeling old yet, but...

Almost 30 years after they quit using KMA367 as a dispatch and mobile callsign for patrol, the officers still say "KMA" most of the time.after lengthy messages, even though the vast majority of officers on the street today weren't on the job, and many weren't even born yet, when that change happened.

It's even worse than you think

KMA367 was replaced by KJC625 as the patrol frequencies' primary callsign in 1982. As of the end of 2009 there were 6488 officers at the Police Officer rank - not sergeants, detectives or above. Of these only 154, or 2.3% were on the job yet in 1982. And 1110, or 17%, of the police officers weren't even born yet in 1982. But the KMA tradition is alive and well. And it's still an active FCC license for a handful of VHF frequencies.

 

[GrandpaFrank]

Ahh the "concentric ring" switch! On the XTS5000 that became the open circle / closed circle switch, usually used for enabling / disabling encryption (if available). I'm not sure what LAPD would use it for (if they use it). It was always disabled on the XTSes I've used in the past. Thanks for the Saber diagram, I've never gotten to play with any of those.

Would they not use encryption if in a joint operation with say, an FBI/ATF/Sheriff/LAPD sting operation like a gang or narcotics sweep? I hear that going on alot and sometimes I hear them say, "let's move to the next location" then i dont hear anything else so i am assuming whoever is copying them is using encryption that my feeble pro-96 cannot receive.

 

[KMA367]

Would they not use encryption if in a joint operation with say, an FBI/ATF/Sheriff/LAPD sting operation like a gang or narcotics sweep? I hear that going on alot and sometimes I hear them say, "let's move to the next location" then i dont hear anything else so i am assuming whoever is copying them is using encryption that my feeble pro-96 cannot receive.

I don't know about the "new" (2008) XTS 5000 and XTL 5000s, but with the Astro Saber IIIs only selected "sensitive" divisions' radios had encryption available. Patrol, traffic, and most detectives' radios didn't have it.

 

[inigo88]

XTS5000 is expensive enough as it is, why purchase an option that makes it even more expensive for operations that don't need it? How many joint FBI/ATF/DEA sting operations do you think the average patrol officer participates in per week?

 

[Radio_Lady]

Final answer to the OP

Also, I hear LAPD use the term "switch to toggle B" quite often, is there sonething Im missing? Is my scanner capable of switching tone's?

It took me long enough, but today I ran into one of the rare police officers who keeps herself up on radio stuff.

On the XTS 5000 portables, "Toggle B" is simplex mode, used either for short distance car-to-car tactical messages as well as if all of the system and standalone repeaters were to ever go down, a pretty unlikely scenario. Toggle positions A and C are identical, both being duplex/repeater mode.

The mobile XTL 5000 radios have a button on the control head to switch the radio back and forth between Direct (simplex) and Repeater operation.

 

[GrandpaFrank]

So I take it this means we are out of luck for listening to toggle B?

 

[Radio_Lady]

So I take it this means we are out of luck for listening to toggle B?

Not at all. The simplex "Toggle B" position listens to the same frequency as "Toggle A," so you don't have to change anything on your scanner. The difference is that when an officer switches his/her radio to Toggle B it transmits directly on the downlink frequency rather than going through a repeater. If you're close enough to them you'll hear them; if you're not, you won't.

For example, Harbor Division's Fallback (aka "Simplex") frequency is 484.875. A radio set on Toggle A will transmit on 487.875 but it will be repeated on 484.875 over a wide area. If he switches to "Toggle B" he will be transmitting directly on 484.875 and the signal won't be carried nearly as far. If you're close enough you'll hear him; if you're not close enough, you won't.