Linking LAFD - LACoFD Dispatch Centers

[LAflyer]

Some recent LAFD delayed response incidents including a death have brought back the idea of linking LAFD and LACoFD dispatch centers to create a single regional automatic aid dispatching model regardless of boundaries.

As far back as 1979 the agencies had agreed to pursue the concept but due to politics and cost the matter never was fully developed.

Recently completed study found that in various areas of the city, county firehouses were closer and could have responded quicker. By adopting a seamless and borderless 911 response system by the fire agencies would benefit residents in the city of Los Angeles.

Story:
LAFD's delayed 911 response a matter of geography and jurisdictions - latimes.com

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[karldotcom]

If they wanted to do it, it would have gotten done. Same with AVL, etc.

[LAflyer]

I think if you can get the politics and personal egos out of the picture, the concept can definitely work from technology side.

As the article points out other California areas such as Orange County, San Diego and San Jose area have already adopted such seamless cross-border dispatching.

It seems to me LA basin is very extremely well suited for such a concept as our map is full of isolated geographic islands.
As the study showed areas such as those bordering West Hollywood, Eastern Los Angeles and the long thin strip of the city has from South L.A. to the Harbor consistently saw longer-than-average response times by the LAFD, while the County often had multiple stations nearby.

[Code20Photog]

Listen, its all well and good, but I can tell you from first hand experience, guys don't get out of the barn to run EMS calls in someone else's jurisdiction. I won't say who the departments are, but there's an automatic aid agreement that ANY call within a half mile of the district line gets units from *both* departments. But, Department A complains that Department B *NEVER* arrives first on EMS calls on *either* side of the line. Half the time, they're only getting toned out by the time Department A arrives on scene.

But if it's a fire, Department B blasts out the door and usually beats Department A.

[Eng74]

Originally Posted by Code20Photog

Listen, its all well and good, but I can tell you from first hand experience, guys don't get out of the barn to run EMS calls in someone else's jurisdiction. I won't say who the departments are, but there's an automatic aid agreement that ANY call within a half mile of the district line gets units from *both* departments. But, Department A complains that Department B *NEVER* arrives first on EMS calls on *either* side of the line. Half the time, they're only getting toned out by the time Department A arrives on scene.

But if it's a fire, Department B blasts out the door and usually beats Department A.

What they need is a JPA, Joint Powers Agreement. The closest unit gets the call in the JPA area Be it city or county. When you send both to see who gets there first to that could bring up the it's not my area. I have never seen anyone go slow because a call is not in their area. Try to beat someone into a call that is in their area, that happens all the time. It is always good to be able to say we beat you into your call. It is a matter of pride. I have been on a few of the we beat you in to your call runs.

[ScannerDude244]

It's to be they don't do it. Monterey and Santa Cruz counties have a consolidated dispatch centers they dispatch for all cities and the unincorporated areas of the county well beside SRA Cal fire contract areas.

[Code20Photog]

Originally Posted by Eng74

I have never seen anyone go slow because a call is not in their area. Try to beat someone into a call that is in their area, that happens all the time. It is always good to be able to say we beat you into your call. It is a matter of pride.

Spend some time in Los Angeles. I've seen and personally been a part of sandbagging on runs, not clearing on the radio from the hospital when a calls goes out, and even some things that may be borderline illegal, just to get another department to handle a EMS call.

Guys hate most EMS runs, plain and simple. Of course there are exceptions, but the majority of FDs I've spent thousands of hours with, as a private EMS EMT, Paramedic trainee, and now as a member of the media, don't set any land speed records on most EMS calls.

I understand pride, and I've seen some great firefighters that still have it. But I've seen exponentially more who are in the job for the paycheck, the boat, lifted 4x4 (with "bad boy" sticker) and the hot nurses.

A busy squad or RA in LA can run 20+ runs a day, some even more. Burnout is rampant, automatic aid, JPA agreement, whatever, isn't going to change that.

[Exsmokey]

A joint city/county dispatch center would not include the departments of the 87 other cities in the county that haven't contracted with the county. El Segundo, Torrance, Pasadena, Glendale, the list goes on. It isn't entirely seamless, but in wildland firefighting outside of L.A. County and perhaps outside of urban areas in general, the closest resource available principle seems to work quite well.

I can't speak about more urban counties as I haven't lived or worked in one since my early years in L.A. I'm not sure if the wildland fire agencies and local fire departments work cooperatively or not.

I can't imagine how a county wide fire agency dispatch center could work given the number of entities involved.

[LAflyer]

Well we do have some local models to look at -- both Verdugo and South Bay are JPA's that provide seamless and and as required borderless fire/ems dispatching to their member cities.

While I am sure the LA City and LA County agreement could be a political football, technology wise I don't see it being too difficult to develop a complete unified station database and activity monitor to be utilized in dispatching the closest unit regardless of geographic borders.

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by LAflyer

Well we do have some local models to look at -- both Verdugo and South Bay are JPA's that provide seamless and and as required borderless fire/ems dispatching to their member cities.

While I am sure the LA City and LA County agreement could be a political football, technology wise I don't see it being too difficult to develop a complete unified station database and activity monitor to be utilized in dispatching the closest unit regardless of geographic borders.

Verdugo and South Bay cover relatively small areas of L.A. County with some of the cities in those JPAs being much smaller than one LFD or LAC battalion. A county wide fire dispatch center could take up a room as large as the inside of a Home Depot or larger. Then the advantage of co-locating would be lost as dispatchers would be calling each other on the phone or looking at their computer screens to communicate. It would seem that having everyone retain their existing facilities and looking at integrating the computer systems of all might be more realistic. I think a lot is lost when you have large, interagency centers and have dispatchers handling different agencies during a shift depending on traffic volume. Dispatcher knowledge of local areas is lost and the outcome can be a lower quality performance by a department.

[LAflyer]

No I agree, there is no need for physical relocation. Let LAFD stay at their new home, and LACo at theirs

Its more an IT project to get them to work 911 calls utilizing the closest available unit regardless of agency affiliation.

[PaulNDaOC]

It"ll be a cold day you know where before these two prominent fire agencies agree to dispatch under one roof.

Merger discussions would break down before it could be decided where the new center would be located.. Downtown or East L.A? In the city or a district suburb?

But seriously the most we will likely see will be some kind of CAD-to-CAD link between the two.

[zerg901]

Exsmokey - this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...fN1p0T2c#gid=0 might answer your question somewhat. If you look at the southern Georgia area, there are some county FDs that are the only FD in the county. Therefore, if they coordinate well with Georgia Forestry Commission, they have good integrated countywide fire dispatch (for both structural and wildfire).

Your comment might boil down to - "which countys in the USA have the fewest fire dispatch centers, and have dropped all boundaries"? Maybe Fresno County CA - maybe DeKalb County GA - maybe Fairfax County VA (just County FD and CIA FD :-) - maybe Prince Georges County MD (just County FD + Andrews AFB)

Lets make this even more interesting. "Which county in the USA has the fewest fire dispatch centers, boundary drops, a integrated radio system, standardized SOPs, and common training?"

[Code20Photog]

If you look at Ventura County, just north of LA, the county dispatch center dispatches all the fire departments with the exception of Oxnard, and all of the ambulances in the county with an integrated radio system. Ironically, they dispatch Gold Coast Ambulance for Oxnard FD, even though Oxnard continues to hold out turning over their dispatch to Ventura County. They also tone out Federal Fire for off base responses, which doesn't actually go to their stations, it goes to their dispatch center, and they in turn tone out the response to the appropriate station.

Again, it's not going to be about the actually system, it's going to come down to the attitude of those responding.

[zerg901]

FIRE PROTECTION SERVICES IN LOS ANGELES COUNTY

1972 study - merge all LA County FDs - close 48 stations

[cabletech]

That study was 40 years ago and the area has grown by 3x and the in fighting is still there.

[garys]

Careful, you'll get in trouble for spilling the beans. I'm on the other side of the country and the story isn't much different. Very, very, few people get into the fire service because they want to run EMS calls. In many systems, it's the new guys that get "stuck" on the ambulance and they bail as soon as they have enough seniority.

They do it because it's part of the job and if most FDs didn't do EMS runs, their call volume would drop by 70-80%.

Originally Posted by Code20Photog

Spend some time in Los Angeles. I've seen and personally been a part of sandbagging on runs, not clearing on the radio from the hospital when a calls goes out, and even some things that may be borderline illegal, just to get another department to handle a EMS call.

Guys hate most EMS runs, plain and simple. Of course there are exceptions, but the majority of FDs I've spent thousands of hours with, as a private EMS EMT, Paramedic trainee, and now as a member of the media, don't set any land speed records on most EMS calls.

I understand pride, and I've seen some great firefighters that still have it. But I've seen exponentially more who are in the job for the paycheck, the boat, lifted 4x4 (with "bad boy" sticker) and the hot nurses.

A busy squad or RA in LA can run 20+ runs a day, some even more. Burnout is rampant, automatic aid, JPA agreement, whatever, isn't going to change that.

[garys]

Originally Posted by PaulNDaOC

But seriously the most we will likely see will be some kind of CAD-to-CAD link between the two.

A CAD to CAD link and a couple of interoperable radio channels would be all that they would need.

[LAflyer]

Little update on this.

LACo Fire chief submitted a report that they have held meetings with LA City and Glendale(wonder if they mean Verdugo) to establish a countywide seamless 911 dispatch concept regardless of jurisdictional boundaries.

The fire chief states they have gained input from experts within the communications and dispatch fields along with input from other cities that utilize multi-agency dispatching.

One of the identified issues is aging computer systems used by both LACo and LA City. The County apparently is in the process of seeking a new dispatch platform already, while LA City is expected to begining seeking bids for its own replacement system next year. Both are “a very, very expensive propositions” however.

Story:
L.A.-area fire departments consider linking 911 dispatch systems - latimes.com

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[Radio_Lady]

Originally Posted by LAflyer

LACo Fire chief submitted a report that they have held meetings with LA City and Glendale(wonder if they mean Verdugo)..

AFAIK, all the "Verdugo" (i.e. fire communications) dispatchers, supervisors and manager are employees of the City of Glendale, but any major decisions would of course involve the fire department administrators of the individual cities served by Verdugo.

Somewhat akin to LAPD, where almost all dispatch-related policies, rules, procedures, and even terminology are decided upstairs and handed down to Communications Division as orders.

But back to the topic at hand, it is good to see that some of the historically insular attitudes that still remain in the SoCal area are being addressed, hopefully once and for all. The fire service is still eons ahead of LE in most of those respects, unfortunately.