Arcadia California FD AOP 2012

[zerg901]

https://docs.google.com/open?id=1htq...05M-CQ_Rapi4jU

Annual Operating Plan for wildfires

USFS sends 5 to 7 pumpers to fires (plus other units)

Radio info might be slightly different from the Radio Ref Database - "Conventional 12" versus "Red 12" as the name for 484.275 for the Arcadia area - 170.00 is old air to ground channel

[Mikerh91]

Originally Posted by zerg901

https://docs.google.com/open?id=1htq...05M-CQ_Rapi4jU

Annual Operating Plan for wildfires

USFS sends 5 to 7 pumpers to fires (plus other units)

Radio info might be slightly different from the Radio Ref Database - "Conventional 12" versus "Red 12" as the name for 484.275 for the Arcadia area - 170.00 is old air to ground channel

This plan is out dated. In addition to the frequencies listed above, White 1 is no longer White 1, it is VFire21 and it is not allowed to be used as a tactical channel.

Mike

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by zerg901

https://docs.google.com/open?id=1htq...05M-CQ_Rapi4jU

Annual Operating Plan for wildfires

USFS sends 5 to 7 pumpers to fires (plus other units)

Radio info might be slightly different from the Radio Ref Database - "Conventional 12" versus "Red 12" as the name for 484.275 for the Arcadia area - 170.00 is old air to ground channel

The Forest Service does not have pumpers, they are engines. The federal wildland fire agencies started using the Incident Command System no later than 1986 with those in California starting earlier than that. One important ingredient of the ICS is common terminology and ICS does not use the term pumper. This is no small detail as differing terminology for the same resources has caused potentially fatal incidents all around the country and actual increased loss of property and acreage.

I've noticed that some eastern fire departments are still calling some of their apparatus "pumpers." At some point the continued practice of this will result in the same problems experienced in western urban-wildland interface areas beginning in the early 1960's. There may be some type of disaster requiring a very large response from outside that region of the country. That is why ICS is now the management system required nationwide. Agencies that don't adapt themselves will find it difficult to get the job done.

Now, consider yourself properly scolded!!! (LOL)

[zerg901]

I am scolded

Had this conversation with a friend in college (his father was a Fire Chief) - "Has your father ever gone to the Town Council asking for money for the engine on the Engine, or the pump on the Pumper?" - "Yes" - "Was it confusing?" - "Not really" - "Maybe he should have asked for a new motor on the Engine" - "Whatever!"

In Maine they have Berthas - http://www.firenews.org/me/NewfieldMEF1.jpg - http://www.firenews.org/me/newfieldme.html - Newfield Maine Town Departments - Fire Department - AFAIK they dont use the 1313 ID anymore - I bet you would hear a 50/50 mix of "Bertha" and "Newfield Forestry" on the radio

Toronto has "Pumpers" and "Aerials" - "Wagon" seems to be a Washington DC area callsign for a 2ndary Engine - I wonder if Arcadia or Angeles has a Engine 37 R? (Might be confused for RE37 (Rescue Engine 37)

I wonder if Montreal has "Pompes" et "Eschelles"?

[scottyhetzel]

Originally Posted by zerg901

I am scolded

Had this conversation with a friend in college (his father was a Fire Chief) - "Has your father ever gone to the Town Council asking for money for the engine on the Engine, or the pump on the Pumper?" - "Yes" - "Was it confusing?" - "Not really" - "Maybe he should have asked for a new motor on the Engine" - "Whatever!"

In Maine they have Berthas - http://www.firenews.org/me/NewfieldMEF1.jpg - http://www.firenews.org/me/newfieldme.html - Newfield Maine Town Departments - Fire Department - AFAIK they dont use the 1313 ID anymore - I bet you would hear a 50/50 mix of "Bertha" and "Newfield Forestry" on the radio

Toronto has "Pumpers" and "Aerials" - "Wagon" seems to be a Washington DC area callsign for a 2ndary Engine - I wonder if Arcadia or Angeles has a Engine 37 R? (Might be confused for RE37 (Rescue Engine 37)

I wonder if Montreal has "Pompes" et "Eschelles"?

Calm down ... The forums are about details not vagueness. The more details the better. Exsmokey has been a great source of details. Don't be upset if your slouching at the table and your licking your fingers and someone with higher education corrects you to sit up straight and and be a gentleman.

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by zerg901

I am scolded

Had this conversation with a friend in college (his father was a Fire Chief) - "Has your father ever gone to the Town Council asking for money for the engine on the Engine, or the pump on the Pumper?" - "Yes" - "Was it confusing?" - "Not really" - "Maybe he should have asked for a new motor on the Engine" - "Whatever!"

In Maine they have Berthas - http://www.firenews.org/me/NewfieldMEF1.jpg - http://www.firenews.org/me/newfieldme.html - Newfield Maine Town Departments - Fire Department - AFAIK they dont use the 1313 ID anymore - I bet you would hear a 50/50 mix of "Bertha" and "Newfield Forestry" on the radio

Toronto has "Pumpers" and "Aerials" - "Wagon" seems to be a Washington DC area callsign for a 2ndary Engine - I wonder if Arcadia or Angeles has a Engine 37 R? (Might be confused for RE37 (Rescue Engine 37)

I wonder if Montreal has "Pompes" et "Eschelles"?

It has been about 30 years since the LAFD used the term "wagon." The term originated when horses pulled coal powered pumpers and another team of horses pulled a wagon carrying hose. LAFD task forces consist of one fully staffed engine, one engine staffed with an engineer only and one ladder truck. The task forces can be split up to make one fully staffed engine and one "light force" available. The light force is made up of the ladder and single staffed engine. This engine is never sent out alone and if I remember correctly, the truck always has this engine with it. Anyway this engine used to be called a "wagon" even though it was capable of pumping water.

This is also a good example of why consistent terminology is required in emergency services. When I took my first ICS training course the term tanker was shown on a slide and below were 4 pictures, one showed U.S. Forest Service engine, one showed a CDF air tanker, one showed an L.A. County FD tank truck used to fill engines with water and one showed an LAFD tank truck used to carry potable water. The confusion caused by the modern day unprecedented large fires of 1970 where a single fire burned across multiple jurisdictions in one shift caused havoc.

Something needed to be done and the Congress passed the FIRESCOPE Act of 1972. This stood for FIrefighting REsources in Southern California Organized for Potential Emergencies. It directed the U.S. Forest Service to take the lead in coming up with a better way of managing wildland fires and other emergencies that fire fighting agencies handle. $5 million was appropriated for the work It included the Santa Barbara, Ventura and Los Angeles County Fire Departments, the L.A. City Fire Department, CDF and the U.S. Forest Service. I remember when the act passed and the early work done. I don't think anyone could foresee the day when the effort would result in the system becoming the U.S. standard and being adopted by many countries around the world.

Peter, your use of the term "pumper" counters that effort. I just took a look at your Google website's listing for the Mark Twain National Forest and the term "pumper" is used. Fire apparatus are not being pulled by horses anymore wagons are not used to carry hose. We don't have fire alarm boxes on each block manufactured by Gamewell. We don't have bells to indicated a first alarm, a second alarm and so forth. Catch up with the times and start using the term "engine" and change your Google site listings accordingly. Your credibility as a knowledgeable hobbyist is in question!

[Exsmokey]

The Newfield, Maine Fire Department use of the term "tanker" sticks out like a sore thumb. Eventually all that stodgy and outdated way of operating, which seems to be pervasive in the east, will have to change. Like I stated before it will take one large incident to make this clear and that incident is coming, sooner rather than later.

"Bertha" is a nickname, not a term for a particular piece of apparatus. It does look like a useful piece of equipment though. I think it would be a little tough to use in the trees of a natural forest, however, as we have trouble enough with Type III engines in the west. I wonder what Bertha would type out as. Probably a Type IV or V.

It is curious to see the term "forestry hose" used, however. What is the difference between "forestry hose" and any other hose? I imagine it has something to do with size, but both structural and wildland firefighting use inch and a half so this would be just one more point of confusion.

I guess tradition breaks down slower in the east since it is the older part of the country.

[PaulNDaOC]

I can see why one might get their 'panties in a bunch' if pumper were used in an ICS setting, but here on the forum I think all here would know that the reference to a pumper and the effort to critique him is wasted hot air.

As long as you can understand what the guy meant in the post get off his back. It's not like this is being used as a reference for an OPS plan.

[zerg901]

Maybe we can take this discussion in a slightly different direction.

Why is the radio info so lame in this official document? For security reasons? To prevent jammers? If you want to really prevent jammers, dont you have to outlaw all privately owned radio transmitters, all scanner websites, all close capture scanners? Dont you have to make every radio manual a top secret document? Dont you have to convert all public safety radio systems to spread spectrum / frequency hopping / etc?

[K6CDO]

Originally Posted by zerg901

Maybe we can take this discussion in a slightly different direction.

Why is the radio info so lame in this official document? For security reasons? To prevent jammers? If you want to really prevent jammers, dont you have to outlaw all privately owned radio transmitters, all scanner websites, all close capture scanners? Dont you have to make every radio manual a top secret document? Dont you have to convert all public safety radio systems to spread spectrum / frequency hopping / etc?

What is so "lame" about the information in the agreement?
Arcadia FD has certain frequencies listed. ANF has certain frequencies listed. The agreement covers ops between the two agencies. Both parties are signatory to other Master Mutual Aid agreements which cover larger (mutual aid operations).

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by PaulNDaOC

I can see why one might get their 'panties in a bunch' if pumper were used in an ICS setting, but here on the forum I think all here would know that the reference to a pumper and the effort to critique him is wasted hot air.

As long as you can understand what the guy meant in the post get off his back. It's not like this is being used as a reference for an OPS plan.

zerg (Peter) is building a website using SOP's, agreements and other documents he has obtained as a result of a significant number of hours doing Internet searches. As such when he lists the resources of fire agencies and departments he should use the proper terminology on his website. I'm trying to get him to use the correct terminology not only in posts, but more importantly on his website.

I've worked dozens of large incidents during a 24 year career before and after ICS was developed and implemented. It involved assignments in the Operations, Planning and Logistical Sections. I know via the school of hard knocks, how important all the features of ICS are. If the users of this website are going to be knowledgeable about the traffic they hear, we need to be consistent and accurate with the information that is presented.

I've posted and corresponded with Peter many times. I've given him information to supplement and correct his impressions of how wildland fire management is conducted. His perspective is formed in the east, specifically Boston, and doesn't include much observation of wildland and natural resource management. His experience with radio coverage does not include that in the mountainous topography of the west. My posts have resulted in thanks from Peter and from others who have PM'ed me. I'm giving Peter a humorous hard time to correct his terminology use.

I've had people PM me with questions that resulted from inconsistent terminology. They ask questions, using a hypothetical example, such as "why do fire departments in the east have pumpers and tankers, while in the west, most especially wildland fire agencies, only have engines and water tenders". They ask questions similar what is the difference between a tanker and water tender. I try to add to the discussion with correct information about procedures and terminology. It's all based on my training and experience, things I'm happy to have. It is something not everyone has, and I think using that to inform others is a good thing. I'm using those couple of trades I'm a master of. I'm a master of a couple of trades, familiar with a few, have read about many, and ignorant of all the others.

One thing that I think important is to give people information about what agency does what. A lot of people lump agencies such as the U.S. Forest Service with the National Park Service with CDF and State Parks into one large agency. As policies, jurisdictions and the law governing each differ it is important for people to know who they are listening to. What I've posted here is part of that overall effort to inform.

Peter's work is commendable as he has found some good documents buried in a sea of unneeded information. Thanks, Peter for everything you have found.

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by zerg901

https://docs.google.com/open?id=1htq...05M-CQ_Rapi4jU

- 170.00 is old air to ground channel

It is interesting to note that 170.0000 could not be used east of the Mississippi for as long as I can remember. It was actually Air Tactics 4 in the BIFC frequency assignments and permission for its use as an air to ground was given for initial attack. NIFC Air Tactics 1-3 are assigned for air to air traffic. The frequency is to be taken away as of 2019 so everyone is giving up any reliance for its use now. Better sooner than later. It is still in the long list of nationally designated air to ground frequencies, is used for it in some comm center areas and will have to replaced at some point before 1/1/19.

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by K6CDO

What is so "lame" about the information in the agreement?
Arcadia FD has certain frequencies listed. ANF has certain frequencies listed. The agreement covers ops between the two agencies. Both parties are signatory to other Master Mutual Aid agreements which cover larger (mutual aid operations).

Non-licensed users of a frequency have to have written permission from the licensee to use that frequency. This is a requirement of the FCC. I had need for me and the others in my winter Nordic program to use a business frequency of a Nordic Ski Area. They were a bit busy and didn't get the letter to me, but asked me to monitor and use their frequency. The Inyo NF radio tech bugged me about it and told me to cease and desist my use of the frequency right in the middle of the busy ski season. By the way, Nordic means cross country.

AOP's always include the written permission for use of each party's frequencies. There is a larger agreement done at the state level authorizing all the fire agencies in the west to use NIFC frequencies when assigned for mutual aid on specific incidents. All of this interagency use of frequencies is not by accident and a type of 'gee, let's put that in our radios, we may need it someday." This AOP shows you how these permissions are given. It all results from negotiations that are unseen by the general public.

Just satisfying the bean counters and attorneys when employing mutual aid in regards to accepting financial procedures of different agencies and the liabilities involved is a complicated endeavor. This endeavor was not present in the now infamous fire season of 1970 that resulted in the FIRESCOPE effort and development of ICS. Administrative types were not allowing their departments to be used for structure protection inside National Forest boundaries and some other jurisdictions. The confusion and loss of potential resources for various incidents is really embarrassing when you look back on it.

[zerg901]

My question might be - why are freqs listed in that AOP at all? If a trunking system is in use, shouldnt that info be included? If multiple UHF and VHF channels are actually used, shouldn't they ALL be included? if just a couple of channels are listed, isnt that misleading and dangerous? If wrong freqs are listed, shouldnt they be corrected ASAP?

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by zerg901

My question might be - why are freqs listed in that AOP at all? If a trunking system is in use, shouldnt that info be included? If multiple UHF and VHF channels are actually used, shouldn't they ALL be included? if just a couple of channels are listed, isnt that misleading and dangerous? If wrong freqs are listed, shouldnt they be corrected ASAP?

The frequencies are listed to satisfy FCC license and IRAC authorization requirements. This so each agency can install and use them in their radios. This portion of the AOP is not intended as a frequency directory. This is a very typical listing for AOPs. Channel plans, apparatus lists and personnel directories for each agency are available by other means.

An atypical AOP is that of an agreement between the USFS, CDF and three counties in the central coast area of California. It has a full listing of each agency's channel plans and a personnel directory.

[zerg901]

Information in official documents can be a matter of life and death. Please see the following info.

---------------------------------------

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2010/AAR1006.pdf

Report on 2010 USFS helo crash at Weaverville CA

page 160 - 20 seconds from trouble to crash

page 136 of 175 - findings - pretty sad - bad oversight

also - maybe the fuel tanks were not as safe as possible

transcript of some radio comms at the end of the report

[Exsmokey]

You are missing the point. You provided a link to an administrative document that is not used in the field.

The NTSB investigation report contained no mention of communications problems. Yes it is important that everyone knows what frequencies are being used. Extended attack incidents have written comm plans via the ICS Form 205, a required document in the Incident Action Plan (IAP). Here is an IAP from an actual incident with a completed 205:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_...rdb5402615.pdf

For initial attack; handbooks, guides, laminated cards and such are used to convey frequencies and their use to radio users. The use of frequencies is discussed in a lot of meetings during the year. When frequency use info is disseminated any changes to past plans are mentioned. It doesn't take long for employees transferring in to understand local radio systems. There are "tailgate" safety meetings held by crews frequently and the topic of radio use is brought up from time to time. This mainly on engines where each crew member carries a handheld. Safety grams cover many topics and any incident where radio use is a factor in a close call or worse is reported.

Each GACC internally publishes a frequency guide that covers all the wildland agency systems for the area. Firefighters, especially those involved in wildland firefighting are very radio use savvy. They know the NIFC system, the new incident management frequency plan outlined in the National Interoperability FOG, they know how the state forestry agency systems work and they know the fire frequencies used by local agencies. Every dispatch for an incident contains frequency information. A radio dispatch in the Forest Service usually sounds like this: Beep, Beep, Beep; "All units, Angeles, report of a vegetation fire, Angeles Crest Highway, 1 mile south of Monte Cristo, approximately 200 yards east of the road, the following units respond: XXX, XXX, etc." At some point they will announce "all units responding your command frequency is Forest Net, 172 dot 375, tac will be NIFC Tac 2, 168 dot 200, Air to Ground R5 4, 169 dot 1125" This frequency use will be routine as are those for mutual aid frequencies of other departments the Forest Service uses when responding to off forest, initial attack incidents. After everyone has responded to numerous mutual aid incidents they understand when it is announced that "Tac will be V Fire 22 154 dot 265" and followed on some forests with "Group 7 channel 12," or some such.

No one is searching in the engine's console for this years AOP for frequency information. The AOP may only be seen by the fire management officer and battalion chiefs. Radio techs keep track of frequency changes in order to revise radio programs. Radio techs stay in touch with each other to be one step ahead in this procedure.

I don't know how else to explain this, AOPs are part of the admin segment of the agencies and frequency authorizations there are part of crossing the T's and dotting the I's. Other frequency use authorizations may be in the form of a letter. I obtained one from across county ski area permittee on the Inyo NF so I could speak directly to their employees. All the recreation radios on the district had that frequency in their programs and all radio programs on the forest were shown on lists available for field going employees and dispatch. Meanwhile, the AOP sits in a folder in a file cabinet and perhaps the vehicle consoles of division and batt chiefs if there is something different from the boilerplate language that most have. The AOP is a source document and radio information is gathered from many sources.

I have nothing else to provide to you on this subject.