Rockwell Collins nationwide disaster HF radio

Status
Not open for further replies.

TexScan780D

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
1,161

TexScan780D

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
1,161
Amateur Radio Operators for decades have been providing emergency HF communications during disasters and emergency. Why pay extra when public safety can get their HF communications for free through Amateur Radio Operators.
 

KB7MIB

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Messages
4,194
Location
Peoria, AZ.
Many states already have licenses for HF frequencies under what is known as SECURE: State Emergency Capability Using Radio Effectively

SECURE - The RadioReference Wiki

Not every state has these licenses, but every state is eligible to acquire them.

John
Peoria, AZ
 

N2AL

Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2008
Messages
417
Location
Tennessee
Amateur Radio Operators for decades have been providing emergency HF communications during disasters and emergency. Why pay extra when public safety can get their HF communications for free through Amateur Radio Operators.

I have to agree with you. Why pay for a free service, when you know you can place your trust in the operator using the equipment. That is why there are organizations such as ARES/RACES, which cost less than Rockwell Collins.
 

iamhere300

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2004
Messages
1,346
Location
Chappell Hill TX
I figured for years now that there would be an uproar from the HAM community about how they provide this service for free, why pay for it, etc.

Truth is, they don't provide this service, and what they do provide for HF is not normally in timely manner to do the same that this service will.

Imagine a large rural county in Nebraska. Cherry County. Less than one person per square mile, 6009 square miles. Something like 4 unlinked repeater sites across their area for the SO patrol. This would give them communications just by picking up the microphone and talking, Email (real email, linked seamlessly to the internet) data and more. No infrasructure.

Imagine forest service teams outside of their regular 2 way radio systems.

Imagine a task force from Harris County TX going to west TX, to meet that forest fire crew, and coordinating back to Harris County. Hard to do on 800 MHZ, but easy with this HF setup.

So many possibilities.
 

iamhere300

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2004
Messages
1,346
Location
Chappell Hill TX
I have to agree with you. Why pay for a free service, when you know you can place your trust in the operator using the equipment. That is why there are organizations such as ARES/RACES, which cost less than Rockwell Collins.

Even more, with this system you can trust yourself. No need to wait on an operator who you may or may not know.
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
23,618
Location
Hiding in a coffee shop.
Amateur Radio Operators for decades have been providing emergency HF communications during disasters and emergency. Why pay extra when public safety can get their HF communications for free through Amateur Radio Operators.

Amateur radio fills a role, but it doesn't fill all roles.
There are situations where it's easier/faster to put the tools in the hands of the people that need them, not requiring a special person be brought in to operate a specific piece of equipment.
Most public safety communications needs to be recorded and properly archived. The requirements for this are well outside the scope of amateur radio and a volunteer service wouldn't meet the requirements for traceability, security, etc.
Put the HF radio in the hands of the dispatcher and there is little delay in getting traffic long distances. Using amateur radio requires putting the message into some written/typed form, getting it to the amateur, having it transmitted across amateur bands to an amateur at the far end. Pass the message back to dispatchers. That all slows down the process.
Using amateur radio requires there being an amateur radio operator with the right equipment on the right frequencies in the right place. You also need to have one at the far end. Not always a reliable choice when dealing with volunteers that may have other priorities in a disaster.
Using a commercial HF system like this means the system can be pre-installed, flypack, mobile, etc, and all ready to go. Tracking down a volunteer to run the system when necessary isn't required. ALE makes it easy, a few hours of training and anyone can do it.

This isn't something new. Many emergency management agencies have systems similar to this. Many are using M-sat systems, satellite phones, etc. None of these systems requires volunteer amateur radio operators to be on scene.

I've been a ham for a few decades now, and I understand where you are coming from. Technology has changed, ALE makes dedicated operators unnecessary in most instances. Satellite based two way radio, satellite phones BGAN terminals, etc have all changed the landscape. Amateur radio still has it's place, but it isn't what it once was. I've been working in public safety telecommunications for a long time, and I think the industry is a lot different than what most amateurs think.
 

TexScan780D

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
1,161
I figured for years now that there would be an uproar from the HAM community about how they provide this service for free, why pay for it, etc.

Truth is, they don't provide this service, and what they do provide for HF is not normally in timely manner to do the same that this service will.

Imagine a large rural county in Nebraska. Cherry County. Less than one person per square mile, 6009 square miles. Something like 4 unlinked repeater sites across their area for the SO patrol. This would give them communications just by picking up the microphone and talking, Email (real email, linked seamlessly to the internet) data and more. No infrasructure.

Imagine forest service teams outside of their regular 2 way radio systems.

Imagine a task force from Harris County TX going to west TX, to meet that forest fire crew, and coordinating back to Harris County. Hard to do on 800 MHZ, but easy with this HF setup.

So many possibilities.

There are thousands of Amateur Radio Operators who regularly step up to help in an emergency to help out in Harris County, TX.
 
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
1,217
Location
Tulsa
The Rockwell Collins solution will provide much more that is permitted with Part 97, higher data rates, email, secure voice. Plus it will be user to user, not requiring a trained radio operator to pass the traffic. There will always be a place for ham radio in EM Comm but there is a need for a nationwide HF network capable of providing a link for our critical infrastructure needs.
 

PJH

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 23, 2002
Messages
3,620
Amateur Radio Operators for decades have been providing emergency HF communications during disasters and emergency. Why pay extra when public safety can get their HF communications for free through Amateur Radio Operators.

Simple answer:

In tactical real-time operations, we cannot have people needing to ID every 2 seconds, place things in certain ham formats to try to comply with FCC ham rules.

In short, I don't need - and sometimes in fast changing situations a 30 second transmission taking an hour.

I've seen this down in NOLA when hams were riding with fire - they were too worried about the long drawn out formats than "Go to 123 Main street for a fire".

It was: N0ABC calling net control W0XYZ for priority traffic
Go ahead

N0ABC this is W0XYZ we have a citizen report of a house on fire at 123 Main Street , again that’s 123 Main St for a report of a fire, can you confirm the receipt of this message, over?

W0XYZ this is NOABC, I understand that we have a (blah blah blah)....
...for 45 mins, when...

N0ABC inform Engine 42 that there is a house fire at 123 Main St, over
"Message received, enroute" will suffice.

NOW, this is not universal or everywhere, but based on ARES/RACES nets and training, its damn common. Just listen to some of the CAP nets these days when it takes 5min to transmit a five word sentence phonetically.

Public safety (in general) is a here and now type of thing, not super formal, conform to HAM rules and regulations. Yes there is a tactical type of clause in there, but it seems that many don't realize it or are practicing it.

In addition, no one want to see some of the stereotypical hams coming to the CP's and trying to run their operation (which I have personally witnessed a few times).

Thankfully, where I am, we have a good crew and they train with us regularly and efficiently (for the most part) and we CAN rely on them. Most other places, not so much.

No one wants to see someone show up with a 706 with a HF antenna on a hardly working 1989 Ford Tempo that has a range of 15 miles, wearing a green vest with 30 patches.

I am not anti-ham, I do have a license, but most groups cannot get their act together and have QUAILIFIED guys and girls to operate in the enviroment that required to properly support todays PS needs.

God forbid that a "club" should merge or join another one (when those rivals exist) to come together for the common good and train together and be held accountable.

/rant
+reality
 

Attachments

  • 4FpMe.jpg
    4FpMe.jpg
    70.4 KB · Views: 5,584
  • ham1.jpg
    ham1.jpg
    13.3 KB · Views: 2,242

ab3a

Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
345
Location
Lisbon MD
Okay, I can see why NVIS HF might be useful. The hard part is figuring out how to organize a net following a disaster, and how to configure a station antenna for NVIS work.

Take a hurricane, for example. How many non-hams know about how to set up, an inverted V antenna? How many non-hams know how to repair equipment that has been struck by lighting? How many would recognize the deficiency prior to a disaster?

These systems need maintenance and practice. Most states put this stuff up thinking that this should be easy and that it will be there following a disaster. That takes a lot of work, constant practice and testing, and a fair amount of knowledge. You won't typically find those people in a 911 call center.

The problem here isn't the frequency allocations, nor is it the cost. It's the training and the constant maintenance. Very few people, outside of ham radio enthusiasts, know how this stuff should perform and should work.

This ought to make lots of money for Rockwell-Collins...
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
23,618
Location
Hiding in a coffee shop.
The problem here isn't the frequency allocations, nor is it the cost. It's the training and the constant maintenance. Very few people, outside of ham radio enthusiasts, know how this stuff should perform and should work.

You are missing something, though:
Most of us who work in this industry are amateur radio operators ourselves. I'd venture to say that 80% of the commercial/public safety LMR radio techs I know all have amateur licenses. Our local county government operated radio shop has several amateurs on staff and has a nice little HF station set up in the back corner of the shop.
 

PJH

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 23, 2002
Messages
3,620
And if you are thinking that 911 dispatchers are setting all this sort of equipment up...

This is all usually state or large county/metropolitan type of users, with municipal radio shops/expertise.

We maintained our own HF and Sat terminals and deployed such resources in support of an agency that needed such communications. It's not a guy with a trailer and extension cord showing up.
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
23,618
Location
Hiding in a coffee shop.
This ought to make lots of money for Rockwell-Collins...

That's entirely OK. "Profit" isn't a four letter word. If they fill a need and do it well, then they deserve the business.

A more appropriate approach for the amateur community would be "How can WE help?" Not to get upset because someone stole your thunder.
Public safety doesn't owe amateur radio operators anything. Amateur radio operators need to step up their game and do a better job of working on the overall package, not just showing up with a radio. If amateur radio operators could provide a reliable, professional and well established service to public safety, they probably wouldn't be looking for a commercial vendor.

It's like anything else, There is an established need. If that need isn't getting filled by the services offered by one group, they are going to find someone who can.
 

n2nov

Active Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2002
Messages
832
Location
Staten Island, NYC
That's entirely OK. "Profit" isn't a four letter word. If they fill a need and do it well, then they deserve the business.

A more appropriate approach for the amateur community would be "How can WE help?" Not to get upset because someone stole your thunder.
Public safety doesn't owe amateur radio operators anything. Amateur radio operators need to step up their game and do a better job of working on the overall package, not just showing up with a radio. If amateur radio operators could provide a reliable, professional and well established service to public safety, they probably wouldn't be looking for a commercial vendor.

It's like anything else, There is an established need. If that need isn't getting filled by the services offered by one group, they are going to find someone who can.

OK then, what specifically can your agency (or another like it) actually use amateur radio operators for? If the local EmComm amateur group knows what they will be tasked with, then they will have a goal to shoot for. It's the unknown expectations that cause many amateurs to assume that they will be needed for everything from the sender to the recipient. I know each agency is different, but there must be some common threads to start with. There should be some other source of possible mission information than the publishing house in Newington.
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
23,618
Location
Hiding in a coffee shop.
There isn't. At least not for us.

We have a well established emergency plan. We have a specific OES office that does this sort of planning. We have our own police and 911 center that plan for this sort of thing.

Local communications are done on repeated VHF for our PD and Fire. We have back up VHF repeaters that the dispatchers can switch in with a click of the mouse. We have agreements with neighboring agencies to share their frequencies if needed. We have an 800 MHz trunked system that is primarily used by "public works" type users, but both Fire/OES, PD and our Emergency Operations Center all have dedicated talk groups on the system. All officers have VHF and 800MHz portables and mobiles.
We have an 800MHz conventional back up repeater.
We have several simplex VHF and 800MHz channels.
All hand held portable radios can use alkaline battery cases as needed. Yes, we have a stock of alkaline batteries in the caches that are kept up to date.
Our OES command truck has an M-Sat terminal.
Our 911/EOC center has an M-Sat terminal. (and yes, we actually have people outside the area we can talk to)
Key people have satellite phones.
We have access to Commercial HF.
I stock disaster recovery supplies to restore my own systems. Antennas, heliax, connectors, spare parts, etc.
Every piece of fixed equipment has generator and battery backup.
We even go as far as to have redundant fiber paths linking our facilities.
Several of my staff also have their amateur licenses. The local county radio shop has guys on their staff that have their amateur radio licenses
Not to mention things like GETS, WPS, redundant fiber connections leaving the sites, connections to inter-county microwave systems, state networks, mutual aid networks, fail over to another 911 PSAP, etc. etc. etc.


When/if all that fails simultaneously we'll start working with mutual aid and other surrounding agencies.

When/if that fails, we might need amateur radio. But honestly, if all those systems fail at the same time we are going to have a much bigger issue than what amateur radio can solve. I'm sure amateur radio could fill a role, but it's pretty far down the list.

What could amateur radio operators do?
Be fully prepared to assist, but not get in the way. In a real emergency, local communications are going to be the key requirement for the short term. Getting essential services back up won't require me talking to someone 5 states away, it'll require me talking 5 miles. Long term support might require talking to the state capitol, but we have the M-Sat terminals, satellite phones, commercial HF, amateurs, etc.

Where amateur radio can really help is supporting the general public. Getting messages out of the area when phones/internet is down. Health and welfare type messages, etc. Neighbor hood watch, CERT, etc. Organized groups to provide assistance.

The need for amateur radio to swoop in and save public safety communications are mostly gone. There are some agencies that have ignored the last 20 years of history, but they are few and far between.
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
23,618
Location
Hiding in a coffee shop.
I think you bring up a good point about not relying on the ARRL as a source for info. They've always seemed a bit misguided in my own opinion.

Some places to look would be:
http://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/fi...gency Communications Plan_October 29 2014.pdf

I'm not anti-amateur radio. I've held an amateur license for a few decades now. Currently I've got a general license.
Where I seem to differ from many amateur radio operators is that work in the industry and I've been on both sides. I know what the capabilities are on each side of the fence and where the strengths are. I'm not denying that amateur can fill a role, we certainly can. Where I think the issue arises is that a few amateurs are under the impression that all public safety radio systems are very fragile and systems will completely fail. There are also some amateurs that confuse the hobby with being actual responders. Amateur radios role would be to support public safety. They key to that is learning how to work under the direction of public safety officials, how to speak plain language, and knowing when and where the hobby can be applied to assist.

I think clubs/organizations should be talking with public safety and letting them know what services can be offered. Just don't be surprised when you are not greeted as a savior. Interfacing hobbyists into the public safety field is difficult. They are two very different things.

A really good resource is to learn how to work within the NIMS structure. This should be mandatory for anyone that expects to help out public safety in an emergency.

I also think ARRL needs to change they way they market amateur radio when it comes to disasters. Technology has changed a whole lot, but the ARES/RACES/Fill in the blank, seems to be stuck in the 60's/civil defense era. ARRL needs to take a close look at this and work on a better solution. Some -standards- would be a great place to start!
 

VE7CFF

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Messages
89
Location
Delta, BC
I agree with what you are saying. I am part of my club's emergency section. We have to have police checks and follow protocols. The province has very good guidelines and training seminars. We provide assistance when asked. We work more closely with our local fire department, as well as Emergency Social Services. 73's
 

Jimru

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,305
Location
Henrico County, VA
Well this take the ham operator out of the loop in helping public safety.......


Not necessarily! There will always be a need for a reliable back-up system. All the emcomm I ever did, including in actual activations; was merely as back up comms.

Giving public service employees HF capabilities is a good idea and should be implemented ASAP, in my opinion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top