Business Radio Licensing and Frequency

[iworms]

Hi all, I'm new to the radio world and hope this is the right forum to ask. We organize a theater show in our area once or twice a year. Each show is typically 2-3 days. So far, we've been renting handhelds during those days, so I know nothing about licensing.

Last week, when the rental guy told me that most of his clients who own their radios don't have licenses, I was surprised. I thought business use required a license. So I want to ask if we were to buy our own radios, would we need a license and frequency coordination? Our situation will be something like this:

1. No base station or repeater.
2. Only handhelds 5W or less (like Kenwood TK-3160).
3. Location may change from one event to another.
4. Only used occasionally (a few events a year).

It'd be great news if we won't need either frequency coordination or license. But I found nothing on google or the fcc website. Anything about regulations on business use is appreciated. Thanks!

[Thayne]

I would get TK3202-L's, they are lighter, cheaper, newer and come with Li-ion batteries. Nobody here would suggest doing anything against the "radio police", but you have a lot of options---

[N_Jay]

Originally Posted by Thayne

. . .Nobody here would suggest doing anything against the "radio police", but you have a lot of options---

Isn't it nice when a person posts this instead of the information you asked for.

As for model of radio, there are hundreds, What have you rented, what has worked well for you, what is most important (size, battery life, loudness, ease of operation, etc.) determines what you need.

You have a few choices:
Here are the legal options, because the illegal options are infinitive.
MURS without a license
VHF or UHF business frequencies with a license (There are some itinerant frequencies that do not require coordination)

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...trial_business
http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...e&id=multi_use

[Packetpeeker]

You mentioned "Theater" operations, Be careful with VHF radios as most wireless mics operate in the VHF band and could be suseptable to VHF transmissions from the radios.
Secondly, you mentioned 5 watt portables, this is relatively low power so as far as licensing and freq. coordination it should not be a problem.
Be sure to mention that you only operate for a week or so and you setup at various locations in the U.S.for performances, the coordinator will set you up with frequencies that have been set aside for this type of activities.
Cost, the last time I set up a client I believe it was 100.00 per channel and the license was good for 10 yrs. This was land mobile hi power communicatons and repeaters, so what your doing will most likely be much less, most coordinators or radio dealers will quote you in advance.
My suggestion is use UHF band, usually you will get about 1 mile per watt open line of sight, in a busy city it may only be 4 or 5 blocks dependig on buildings and other interference.

[iworms]

Thanks guys, I know where to start now. From what I've read, UHF is better suited for penetrating building walls. And could anyone give a short primer on itinerant frequency?

[DaveNF2G]

If you rent radios from a commercial radio shop that has its own FCC license, then you don't need your own license. Your use is covered under theirs. It should be spelled out in the rental contract.

[avguy]

Originally Posted by Packetpeeker

You mentioned "Theater" operations, Be careful with VHF radios as most wireless mics operate in the VHF band and could be suseptable to VHF transmissions from the radios.

I disagree, most modern wireless systems are UHF.
I have just attended wireless microphone deployment training seminars conducted by Shure, Sennheiser and Lectrosonics who lead the field in wireless microphones.

[tekshogun]

I think the FCC does not have a business radio license class anymore, that is to issue. There are businesses that have been grandfathered in and they are still used/renewed, etc but MURS and GMRS has taken over these channels.

Renting radios is an option but if you want a permanent set of radios, for what you do, your best options are:

FRS radios which is unlicensed and operates in the 460 MHz part of the UHF band.

GMRS which is licensed. This does not require any testing/certification but I think (think is the operative word) that you can apply for one license for your organization and use that (I have a GMRS license for my self and my family). This too operates in the 460MHz part of UHF and shares some channels with FRS. Your flexibility of radios and setups to use here are far greater than FRS but just one license is going to cost around $85 or more (it seems to go up every year, I paid $85 or $80 for mine last year).

Next would be MURS. If you can find MURS radios (and there are some out there), you can use this just fine, unlicensed and it operates in the VHF range (in the 150MHz area).

Apart from that, you would have to get some kind of expensive business pool license for land mobile radio and get some dedicated frequencies which may not be good option for you.

Good luck. I don't know everything, so if I am wrong, someone please correct me. The FCC laws get real funny sometimes and may be difficult to interpret or follow if you are not paying attention.

My suggestion would be FRS or GMRS. The radios are cheap, and for GMRS, the license is cheap for a five year period.

[n5ims]

FRS use in support of a theater production is probably not the best idea. You'll hopefully have a good audience so there will quite likely have those in attendence (as well as those that don't attend, but are quite near the theater) that will also be using their FRS radios. You wouldn't want your communications distrupted by Billy telling Sue to pick up a some drinks and popcorn on the way back from the restroom.

GMRS would be quite expensive with each one that has a radio needing their own $85 license (assuming that this entire production isn't just done by a single family). A single license covers multiple people in a single family, and each family would need their own license to be legal.

[N_Jay]

Originally Posted by tekshogun

I think the FCC does not have a business radio license class anymore, that is to issue. There are businesses that have been grandfathered in and they are still used/renewed, etc

I think you may be incorrect.
FCC: Wireless Services: Industrial/Business: Industrial / Business Home

Originally Posted by tekshogun

but MURS and GMRS has taken over these channels.

While MURS did take some of the itinerant I/B channels, GMRS is probably as old as the UHF I/B Service.

Originally Posted by tekshogun

GMRS which is licensed. This does not require any testing/certification but I think (think is the operative word) that you can apply for one license for your organization and use that (I have a GMRS license for my self and my family). This too operates in the 460MHz part of UHF and shares some channels with FRS. Your flexibility of radios and setups to use here are far greater than FRS but just one license is going to cost around $85 or more (it seems to go up every year, I paid $85 or $80 for mine last year).

GMRS is not acceptable for a business as each FAMILY requires a license.
There are grandfathered businesses operating on GMRS from the days when an "organization" could obtain a license.

Originally Posted by tekshogun

Next would be MURS. If you can find MURS radios (and there are some out there), you can use this just fine, unlicensed and it operates in the VHF range (in the 150MHz area).

Yes, legal radios are a bit hard to find.
The market does not seem to have developed well.

Originally Posted by tekshogun

Apart from that, you would have to get some kind of expensive business pool license for land mobile radio and get some dedicated frequencies which may not be good option for you.

It is not terribly expensive. Probably cheaper than getting the handful of GMRS licenses you would need to skirt the law on that band.

Originally Posted by tekshogun

Good luck. I don't know everything, so if I am wrong, someone please correct me. The FCC laws get real funny sometimes and may be difficult to interpret or follow if you are not paying attention.

Yes, you are right about needing to know the rules, and their sometimes convoluted arrangement.

Originally Posted by tekshogun

My suggestion would be FRS or GMRS. The radios are cheap, and for GMRS, the license is cheap for a five year period.

My suggestion would be MURS or a I/B license. Too many kids on FRS.

[tekshogun]

Originally Posted by N_Jay

I think you may be incorrect.
FCC: Wireless Services: Industrial/Business: Industrial / Business Home

I am pretty sure that the Industrial/Business pool is not the same as the Business Radio Service. The I/B pool is more of a category of how licensees are filed and coordinated. The Business Radio Service may be a subset of the I/B pool but BRS, like GMRS, MURS, and FRS, are compartmentalized (or more specifically a very strict group of frequencies across the spectrum). In fact the I/B Pool is covered under Subpart C of the FCC's part 90 rules while the Business Radio Service was a section of Subpart D of the same part 90.

While MURS did take some of the itinerant I/B channels, GMRS is probably as old as the UHF I/B Service.

You're exactly right, but again, I think we're confusing the I/B pool of with the now defunct BRS.

I believe the FCC has reserved these services for anyone that already had a license. Somewhere, in the last 10 to 13 years, these "industrial radio services" were removed and anyone that already had a license could keep it (unless otherwise informed by the FCC). The earliest mention of the Business Radio Service that I can find is from 1997 and 1996:

Part 90 - Subpart D, 1996 and 1997:
90.63 Power Radio Service.
90.65 Petroleum Radio Service.
90.67 Forest Products Radio Service.
90.69 Film and Video Production Radio Service.
90.71 Relay Press Radio Service.
90.73 Special Industrial Radio Service.
90.75 Business Radio Service.
90.79 Manufacturers Radio Service.
90.81 Telephone Maintenance Radio Service.

These seem to have been canned by the following adopted FCC rules in 1998.

Another group from the land transportation radio service seems to have also been canned and obviously these would be grandfathered:

90.89 Motor Carrier Radio Service.
90.91 Railroad Radio Service.
90.93 Taxicab Radio Service.
90.95 Automobile Emergency Radio Service.

GMRS is not acceptable for a business as each FAMILY requires a license.
There are grandfathered businesses operating on GMRS from the days when an "organization" could obtain a license.

You're right there as well, and the FCC couldn't make it any more clear but iworms never specified exactly who "We" are so it is possible this may not be a business and could be a community thing which means if individuals have their own licenses then they and their families could use GMRS as a family/community activity such as a few families organizing the theatre, etc; the problem being that this is likely not the case and as n5ims stated, this can be a little pricey but possibly beneficial as the licenses can be used for many other activities.

It is not terribly expensive. Probably cheaper than getting the handful of GMRS licenses you would need to skirt the law on that band.

True, but since the FCC does not issue BRS licenses anymore, they license in the I/B pool based on your business needs and the availability of frequencies so it could be potentially more expensive than GMRS.

My suggestion would be MURS or a I/B license. Too many kids on FRS.

MURS and even short range handheld CB radios would be perhaps very perfect for this. But also, there is the 900MHz unlicensed range and you can find FCC type-accepted digitally coded and encrypted spread-spectrum radios out there that support text messaging. Like these: TriSquare - 2-way Radio - Beyond FRS Beyond GMRS eXRS (TM) eXtreme Radio Service I have used these radios, briefly, and they are surprisingly nice.

[N_Jay]

My understanding is I/B is basically just all the various old I/B "services" gathered together, just as the Public Safety pool is all the old various public safety services gathered together.

I don't see how the change would make I/B inappropriate for this use.

[tekshogun]

Originally Posted by N_Jay

My understanding is I/B is basically just all the various old I/B "services" gathered together, just as the Public Safety pool is all the old various public safety services gathered together.

At this time, the I/B pool is the all of those old services, but when they were individually licensed (such as Business Radio Service and the Petroleum Radio Service), at one point, there was no "Industrial-Business" Service or Pool. And again, the FCC is not issuing licenses exclusively for those old individual services, only renewing current holders.

In fact, Subpart C, used to be the Special Emergency Radio Service, which included regular use of radios on school buses and their associated base stations, there was a national public safety plan, beach patrols and various others. Subpart C has now been completely revised and now refers to the Industrial Business Pool. Subpart B used to be very specific public saftey (and was called public safety radio service) but the old Sub C and Sub B sections were shifted around so you have all "public safety and government organizations" in Sub B under "Public Safety Radio Pool" and everything else got shoved under Sub C - "Industrial/Business Pool"

Not everything under Sub B and Sub C are old. There are many new things, which is probably why the FCC found it to be a good thing to stop issuing all of these crazy individual licenses (petroleum radio service? really? do taxicabs really need their own service? and forest products? film and video?)

I don't see how the change would make I/B inappropriate for this use.

I never stated the I/B pool was inappropriate. If they want a license and a set of frequencies dedicated to them for a theatre production that occurs only twice a year for two to three days at a time, that is there prerogative. I will say this though, I do believe it would be cheaper for them to buy unlicensed radios. Since we don't have big details, we're not sure what this person needs but an I/B license would mean they would have to buy commercial radios that must be programmed (they can't use FRS/GMRS, MURS, Ham, CB, unlicensed 900MHz, equipment to operate an I/B license).

[iworms]

Thanks tekshogun and N_Jay. I had skipped the details to avoid a long post that no one would read.

It is a business, so GMRS is out of the question. We're quite happy with the rental, actually. But at around $10 per radio per day and 6-10 days a year, it will only take a few years for rental to become more expensive. So I naturally wonder if we can buy what we've been renting.

The question about license and frequency is both technical and financial. Financial because if licensing and frequency coordination/assignment cost a lot, we might as well keep renting. Technical because of what the rental guy had said:
Me: So you also sell radios.
Him: Yeah.
Me: But if we buy our own, we'll need a license and all the stuff.
Him: Not really. Most of my clients don't have a license. Sure, if you're a casino or a supermarket with a repeater mounted on the roof, then you'll need a license.

I just find it hard to believe. Anyone shed some light on it?

[N_Jay]

Originally Posted by iworms

. . . . Him: Not really. Most of my clients don't have a license. Sure, if you're a casino or a supermarket with a repeater mounted on the roof, then you'll need a license.

I just find it hard to believe. Anyone shed some light on it?

He is a typical low end radio sales guy.

Unfortunately more of them than good ones.

[tekshogun]

Yeah, as N_Jay stated, probably not the best dealer to work with.

iworms, can you find out or do you remember what types of radios you all were renting?

Again, anything operating outside of FRS, MURS, CB, or the various UHF shared license free frequencies (such as 900MHz, 2.4GHz, etc) requires a license unless you are renting equipment from a business then I think you piggy back on their license.

Seriously, you all should look into these TriSquare 900MHz radios. If you don't have to communicate with someone across town, they'll work great in a large venue area (such as a park, auditorium, etc). The frequencies won't be crowded either.

[Thayne]

Originally Posted by N_Jay

Isn't it nice when a person posts this instead of the information you asked for.

As for model of radio, there are hundreds, What have you rented, what has worked well for you, what is most important (size, battery life, loudness, ease of operation, etc.) determines what you need.

You have a few choices:
Here are the legal options, because the illegal options are infinitive.
MURS without a license
VHF or UHF business frequencies with a license (There are some itinerant frequencies that do not require coordination)

FCC: Wireless Services: Industrial/Business: Industrial / Business Home
FCC: Wireless Services: Multi-Use Radio Service (MURS): MURS Home

Well--I felt bad at first for my simplistic post, but now I'm glad after watching this one get chased all over the countyside; it really WAS a good answer, considering my fingers are not as motivated as they used to be.
I would rather make my head spin and my eyes cross by reading something funny or nasty than by reading some boring machinations of the "Radio Gods" discussing the best legal ways to communicate in a theatre--
By the way, is popcorn better with real butter or is the yellow powder the way to go?

[tekshogun]

No Radio Gods in here. And the butter powder is better for you. People just tend to put too much on their popcorn. Got to shake it up a bit after pouring.

[iworms]

Originally Posted by tekshogun

iworms, can you find out or do you remember what types of radios you all were renting?

We've rented Kenwood TK-3160 and TK-260 on separate occasions. 3160 worked better, but I'm not sure whether it was the UHF, the theater environment, or combination of both.

[C138Kaysone]

Originally Posted by tekshogun

Seriously, you all should look into these TriSquare 900MHz radios. If you don't have to communicate with someone across town, they'll work great in a large venue area (such as a park, auditorium, etc). The frequencies won't be crowded either.

those trisquares are nice, they range up from a 100, depending on line of sight with what? millions of combinations of sub codes.

pretty neat, got a friend working for a security company and they use em