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Old 06-15-2010, 5:53 PM
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Default Keep OFF my repeater

Selective Calling seems to be the term used or tool utilized by communications companies to keep bad people off their repeaters. I am curious to these technologies and how many options there are for the operator of the system. I mean certainly if a company is paying on a per radio basis, it does not simply work on the honor system. With the availability of programming software, interface cables or even manual field programmable radio options, it can't still be as simple at PL codes?

I am an honest guy, I have 6 radios, I plan to pay for each radio I want to use. A dishonest person would tell the repeater provider that they only have 3 radios, then program the other 3 themselves. What is the roadblock? Just selective calling? How do the tower people really know if radio #5 is one I am paying for monthly service or if it is a rogue radio pirating the airwaves? It just seems that with today's technology (or at least the ease of use) I could very easily be a customer at Taco Bell from 6 blocks away laughing with binoculars.

I know it sounds fishy, I can assure you I am a grown man, I am just interested in educating myself and I ask because I want to study these well for use on my own repeater soon. Another thread mentions DSC, CTCSS and DTMF... Are there any other methods? Or are these tools not used for such purposes?
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Old 06-15-2010, 6:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerowatts View Post
Selective Calling seems to be the term used or tool utilized by communications companies to keep bad people off their repeaters. I am curious to these technologies and how many options there are for the operator of the system. I mean certainly if a company is paying on a per radio basis, it does not simply work on the honor system. With the availability of programming software, interface cables or even manual field programmable radio options, it can't still be as simple at PL codes?

I am an honest guy, I have 6 radios, I plan to pay for each radio I want to use. A dishonest person would tell the repeater provider that they only have 3 radios, then program the other 3 themselves. What is the roadblock? Just selective calling? How do the tower people really know if radio #5 is one I am paying for monthly service or if it is a rogue radio pirating the airwaves? It just seems that with today's technology (or at least the ease of use) I could very easily be a customer at Taco Bell from 6 blocks away laughing with binoculars.

I know it sounds fishy, I can assure you I am a grown man, I am just interested in educating myself and I ask because I want to study these well for use on my own repeater soon. Another thread mentions DSC, CTCSS and DTMF... Are there any other methods? Or are these tools not used for such purposes?
I Think they use the s/n and a couple other numbers as well and when that radio is keyed up the repeater it knows if it's on that repeater or not / just like a cell phone (IMEI) number for activation,with out the IMEI you cant use the phone. (but then again i could be wrong about the REPEATER system)
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Old 06-15-2010, 7:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerowatts View Post
How do the tower people really know if radio #5 is one I am paying for monthly service
or if it is a rogue radio pirating the airwaves?
On an analog, conventional system with mobiles/portables
having no ANI, the 'tower people' likely wouldn't know.

Highly inadvisable, since the 'rogue' radios would be operating unlicensed,
as they are not authorized by the licensee AND it would be
theft of services AND they'd probably sue the pants off of you -
(see fine print in contract under damages).

FCC fine, state criminal charge and civil law suit. Not good.
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Old 06-15-2010, 7:13 PM
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I am starting to see some of the security features a digital system has to offer!

That makes feel a load more comfortable about getting my own repeater in the future! Thank you.

Now you mention they can see if you are supposed to be or not supposed to be using that system, how does one go about enforcing or tracking it down? I assume that being to see it will not disable it on an analog system. :/ Kind of forces me to use digital since there is so little for enforcement, or evidencing for that matter. Realistically a digital repeater system brand new could run as low as an analog in regards to pricing? Wishful thinking maybe haha.

Thank you both.
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Old 06-16-2010, 7:29 AM
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Some companies bill for repeater usage, instead of number of radios. They put repeater controllers that have timers on the different pl's. They obtain the times, and bill accordingly.
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Old 06-16-2010, 2:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPapay View Post
Some companies bill for repeater usage, instead of number of radios. They put repeater controllers that have timers on the different pl's. They obtain the times, and bill accordingly.
I noticed that alot of providers refer to airtime minutes (like cellular used to), I wondered how that worked and now I know! Thanks again.
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Old 06-16-2010, 8:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepdx View Post
Highly inadvisable, since the 'rogue' radios would be operating unlicensed,
as they are not authorized by the licensee AND it would be
theft of services AND they'd probably sue the pants off of you -
(see fine print in contract under damages).
Mike I can assure you I am not considering any such thing. I would never steal in any such manner. I am a businessman who believes in his local economy and I have respect for other businesses and their means of feeding their families. Not to mention I am certain all the communication companies providing all such services read this forum regularly. I am positive the provider I have been frustrated with has read all my posts (knows who I am) and would watch for such attempts. It's just not a cool thing to do. The FCC's $10k per day doesn't sound like fun either.

Honestly though I am thinking of how these techniques not only could be utilized in my future repeater, but how I might practice playing with advanced features such as this now on say some GMRS frequencies. I am very interested in taking a couple of my radios and just have a private channel for me to speak with my brother on or something. Are any of these features repeater use only or could a radio capable use these same options in a simplex operating mode?

In other words, a step or two beyond CTCSS, perhaps a receiver that not only uses 464.575 with a CTCSS of 225.7 then in addition the receiver will only open up to a DTMF or ANI?

In theory that means my pro radio (programmed to this GMRS frequency) would never open up for the bubble pack traffic of the neighbor kids playing hide and seek? Could this work? I don't care if people hear me, but I want to ONLY hear my brother in this scenario.

Last edited by zerowatts; 06-16-2010 at 8:16 PM..
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Old 06-16-2010, 8:38 PM
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I've heard of, and know of a few companies that use techniques such as a simple audio recording, up to radio fingerprinting, and even go as far as radio direction finding on situations such as this.

Most companies don't enforce it too much unless you cause interference or are only paying for a small number of radios and are using a *lot* more than you are paying for... Usually they tend to let the occasional extra radio or 2 slide and simply ignore it.

At least that's what I know from my experience, yours may vary.
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Old 06-20-2010, 4:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerowatts View Post
Mike I can assure you I am not considering any such thing. I would never steal in any such manner. I am a businessman who believes in his local economy and I have respect for other businesses and their means of feeding their families...
When I referred to "you" in my reply,
I meant the collective you, as in 'one' might do this or that.

Would you believe I actually wondered if you might think
that I was referring to you personally when I wrote it?

I wasn't.
My apologies, sir.
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Last edited by mikepdx; 06-20-2010 at 4:25 PM..
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Old 06-20-2010, 4:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepdx View Post
Would you believe I actually wondered if you might think
that I was referring to you personally when I wrote it?

My apologies.
I did indeed. No worries. I got it now lol
There are some over the top rule sticker types in the radio arena. I am not saying rules are not to be followed but in some cases people are fearful to even ask a theoretical question around these HAM types.
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Old 06-20-2010, 4:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerowatts View Post
Selective Calling seems to be the term used or tool utilized by communications companies to keep bad people off their repeaters. I am curious to these technologies and how many options there are for the operator of the system. I mean certainly if a company is paying on a per radio basis, it does not simply work on the honor system. With the availability of programming software, interface cables or even manual field programmable radio options, it can't still be as simple at PL codes?

I am an honest guy, I have 6 radios, I plan to pay for each radio I want to use. A dishonest person would tell the repeater provider that they only have 3 radios, then program the other 3 themselves. What is the roadblock? Just selective calling? How do the tower people really know if radio #5 is one I am paying for monthly service or if it is a rogue radio pirating the airwaves? It just seems that with today's technology (or at least the ease of use) I could very easily be a customer at Taco Bell from 6 blocks away laughing with binoculars.

I know it sounds fishy, I can assure you I am a grown man, I am just interested in educating myself and I ask because I want to study these well for use on my own repeater soon. Another thread mentions DSC, CTCSS and DTMF... Are there any other methods? Or are these tools not used for such purposes?
You can analyze the incoming signal to create a unique fingerprint for each radio on the analog system. That is one method that is used to identify jammers on systems. A guy goes to ham repeater A and jams it, a couple days latter he visits repeater B and conducts a regular contact now you know the most likely suspect. It is not 100%, but good enough for government work.
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Old 06-20-2010, 4:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerowatts View Post
There are some over the top rule sticker types in the radio arena.
I am not saying rules are not to be followed but in some cases people are fearful to even ask a
theoretical question around these HAM types.
I'm a ham. I can relate.
If you want to warm up the finals for a couple of hours on an otherwise quiet ham repeater,
just throw out a legal question, and ask for opinions.
There are plenty of armchair lawyers who'll bite the bait.
LOL

Good luck.
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Old 12-31-2010, 1:48 PM
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I always laugh at some of the replies around these parts. I'm not saying they are out of line, or are clueless to the laws. It just seems like if they had the chance, and knew where you lived, they'd bust down your door with AK-47's and force you to read the FCC part 90 aloud while chewing on the barrel of the gun.

Lighten up guys, I'm so sick of hearing about the minuscule details of the FCC part 90. "If you don't tie an actual square knot it the left over right then right over left configuration, the FCC will come and throw your first born child into a wood chipper. Once completed, You have the option of 1.) The FCC will break your knees and push you into oncoming traffic, or 2.) The FCC will rape your wife with a baseball bat, hickory in material, made of and stamped and or branded, indicating being a product of the United States that has been studded with outward facing 16d nails."
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Old 12-31-2010, 3:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nah2323 View Post
I always laugh at some of the replies around these parts. I'm not saying they are out of line, or are clueless to the laws. It just seems like if they had the chance, and knew where you lived, they'd bust down your door with AK-47's and force you to read the FCC part 90 aloud while chewing on the barrel of the gun.

Lighten up guys, I'm so sick of hearing about the minuscule details of the FCC part 90. "If you don't tie an actual square knot it the left over right then right over left configuration, the FCC will come and throw your first born child into a wood chipper. Once completed, You have the option of 1.) The FCC will break your knees and push you into oncoming traffic, or 2.) The FCC will rape your wife with a baseball bat, hickory in material, made of and stamped and or branded, indicating being a product of the United States that has been studded with outward facing 16d nails."
Lay off the Jack Daniels? ;-)
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Old 12-31-2010, 3:46 PM
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A number of years back I use to operate a business community repeater. Had several customers on there and billed them by the minutes they used. I couldn't control the number of mobiles, so the time used was the only way.

As for non payment, if the bill wasn't paid by the required time, the tone being used was shut off. No leeway, no excuses, pay or get shut off. Then it cost a fee to get turned back on after they paid. Had one customer that played the game right up to the last day. Then they would call and give me some song and dance story. Bottom line I always told them if your check is not in my hands by the day it is due, that night you get shut off. Took a couple of rounds, but eventually they would learn. After the second time, it was a month in advance before they would get turned back on, plus the turn on fee.

On a ham repeater, your open to the world and it would be hard to limit who used your repeater. Sure you could call the party and ask them if they wanted to use your repeater, that you would appreciate them contributing toward the up keep of it. If they didn't want to play by your rules, you could shut it off each time they tried to use it.

I have seen the radio signature used very effectively on repeaters. So much so, that some parties that loaned the problem children a portable or mobile radio had that radio added to the hit list and it couldn't be used on the repeater again. Radio signature systems work, but they need a computer to function and some special software to operate.
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Old 12-31-2010, 7:37 PM
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You could always throw up a passport repeater, PassPort unlike regular LTR requires an ESN for the radio to work on the system.
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Old 01-01-2011, 9:57 AM
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Maybe the best way for two or three people who just want to talk to each other privately via radio would be to use cell phones with the PTT feature.
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Old 01-01-2011, 8:00 PM
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Encryption is your answer. select your code or codes allowed to be repeated. With des-xl there is no known way to duplicate it, unless you tell them. I have used it on uhf and it works fine.
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Old 01-03-2011, 6:39 PM
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Cimarron Technologies (Home : Cimarron Technologies for ANI Encoders and Decoders) makes ANI decoders & encoders; one of their instruction manuals, and an app. note has a short bit about using an ANI decoder box to control access to a repeater based on presence of either any, or correct, ANI.

On the face of it, don't see why it wouldn't work. You'd have to contact them and find out if they have ever had a customer do this, and how well it worked.

Whatever floats your boat, eh?
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