What Cities or Counties use Simplex Fireground in ADDITION to a trunk system

[ThePagerGeek]

I'm working on a project where I need to know what cities or counties that have a trunk system use Simplex Tactical frequencies for fireground use?

Are they monitored by their dispatcher? Can the dispatcher talk back to them?

IE: Phoenix FD

Thanks for any help,

tpg

 

[phillydjdan]

In the Philadelphia area:

Philadelphia uses encrypted talkgroups for active fireground operations on their 800 MHz digital trunked system, but has 3 simplex analog frequencies that are mostly used for operations after the fire is under control or other misc functions, like searches, etc. I do not believe they are monitored by dispatchers.

Bucks County uses a 500 MHz digital trunked system, however all fireground operations are on 1 of 2 simplex analog frequencies. They are actually a pair previously licensed for repeater duty (501.3375 & 504.3375). Each tower site has equipment to transmit and receive on both channels, and are recorded. Although the dispatchers are not supposed to transmit on them, I have heard a dispatcher make contact with an out-of-county MedEvac chopper on one of them.

Montgomery County PA uses an 800 MHz digital trunked system, and they do one of two things for fireground operations. Either they use a set of analog talkgroups on the system (called "event" channels), or they can use 1 of 6 simplex analog frequencies. I cannot confirm if dispatchers have access or monitor them or not.

Chester County operates an 800 MHz LTR system, but has a set of analog simplex frequencies available for fireground operations. Again, unknown if dispatchers have access.

Burlington County NJ uses a 500 MHz digital trunked system, but uses a set of simplex analog "Ops" channels for fireground operations. Unknown if dispatchers have access.

That's all I can confirm from this area.

If you're looking for input on these setups, I think the Bucks County setup is the best. The dispatchers can transmit and receive, they are recorded by dispatch, and can be heard if you are close by. There is even a repeater owned by a fire company that repeats the channel most commonly used (Fireground 2, 504.3375). The agencies that do not monitor or record their simplex channels are just asking for trouble, I think. And don't get me started on Philly using encrypted talkgroups. There was already one incident where 3 firefighters died a few years ago, and it is widely believed that their mayday call from the basement was never received by the trunked system's tower.

I hope this helps you in your research!

 

[ThePagerGeek]

Yes, it does GREATLY. Thank you. I'm looking for as many as possible.

The project is identifying agencies that use simplex tactical frequencies as part of fireground operations. Everyone knows the safest method of communications is simplex / analog (from within a building to a person outside), but the second part of that aspect is whether it is monitored by the dispatcher as well.

Thanks for the input

Keep 'em coming.

tpg

 

[zerg901]

Batboard • View topic - Digital Trunking Talkgroups for fireground operations - There is some 2004 info there from Toronto which I dont totally understand (but maybe someone can explain what repeater the dispatcher turns on). I found this by searching for 'simplex' and 'fireground' at Radio Reference. There were several other promising hits also.

My guess is that most trunked agencies do have some simplex channels, but they rarely use them, and they are rarely linked to dispatchers. But dont ask me to prove it. That kind of info doesnt pop up too often as I travel the Net.

(Anne Arundel County MD, Washington DC, Manchester NH, Providence RI, Portland ME - these are all FDs that have 800 Mhz TRS - and IIRC they use (or have used in the past) MO3 also - I am not sure what simplex ops they utilize).

Also - I seem to remember a recent thread about Baltimore City FD having some simplex channels which are rarely used.

Peter Sz

 

[trumpetman]

The City of Charleston FD in South Carolina was using a P25 800 Trunked system last time I was down there. Fireground chatter was on 800 MHz simplex analog frequencies. As far as I know, nothing has changed in the last six months.

 

[zerg901]

http://forums.radioreference.com/colorado-radio-discussion-forum/242016-lfr-ops-8-a.html

South MetCom near Denver has a P25 FG non trunked channel

 

[n5ims]

One issue with a simplex fireground channel is that there often is no way to record the traffic for later analysis. It's very common to record all traffic on a repeater channel or trunked system channel. How some agencies handle this (and from the post appears to be how Toronto does) is to have the ability to patch the simplex channel onto a trunking talkgroup somehow.

Often this was done by the incident commander using an additional radio to transmit all traffic on the simplex fireground channel onto the trunked system using a talkgroup setup for that purpose. Since the command station should be in a position to hear all traffic on the channel this generally works well. If they attempted to use a receiver at the trunked system site they may not get all of the traffic. While it's the on-scene incident commander that actually handles the patching of the channels, dispatch is often used to activate the patched talkgroup or at least assign which one should be used. Since the recorders are now smaller and more "mobile friendly", they are moving to recording the traffic locally instead of patching it. This audio is then uploaded after the incident is over.

Often with agencies that cover a large area, they can reuse a simplex fireground channel when the number of major incidents exceed the number of channels they have. Since simplex traffic doesn't travel very far, this generally works out fairly well. What is critical when doing this is to make sure that there's sufficient distance between the two incidents that are sharing the same frequency so that interference is minimized. The agency may also program the frequency into their radios with different PL tones so help further isolate any interference so one incident would use 155.25/PL 107.2 (Ch-5) while the other would use 155.25/PL 110.9 (Ch-7).

 

[KB7MIB]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; U; en-US) Gecko/20081217 Vision-Browser/8.1 301x200 LG VN530)

Phoenix was already mentioned by the OP. They maintain 2 seperate and complete radio systems. VHF conventional is for fire and hazmat incidents, and the RWC P25 trunked system is for EMS incidents. Alarm maintains full capabilities on both systems.

 

[krokus]

While we use MPSCS for most of our communications, my agency has already planned to utilize analog direct comms, in our large commercial structures, should there be an event in one.

 

[ecps92]

Cambridge Mass 800 TRS for Disp and routine ops/medicals.

2 FireGround Conventional Repeater patched back to the Trunk
Units can also work simplex, but typically are heard on the Conventional Repeater

I'm working on a project where I need to know what cities or counties that have a trunk system use Simplex Tactical frequencies for fireground use?

Are they monitored by their dispatcher? Can the dispatcher talk back to them?

IE: Phoenix FD

Thanks for any help,

tpg

 

[902]

In writing your research, would you please do several paragraphs about why it would be important for dispatch to have access to fireground traffic, rather than having the FG managed by the incident commander, who would rather a direct conduit back to dispatch. If traffic is recorded onscene (a battalion chief's vehicle or a fieldcomm unit), the dispatcher may be a distraction to field operations, and, given staffing levels in communications, there may not be a dispatcher to devote his or her complete attention to the incident. Span of control applies at dispatch, too.

 

[Jimru]

FDNY (NYC) uses simplex for FG, but I don't believe it is monitored by dispatch:

http://m.radioreference.com/?scid=1881

Also try:

www.n2nov.net

Charlie, N2NOV is very knowledgeable about the FDNY and he should be able to tell you for sure if FG is monitored or if not, how recordings are made.

Jim

 

[zerg901]

I dont think that FDNY fire units use any trunking - except maybe for admin

FDNY EMS seems to have 1 UHF TG in their radios (which also have simplex channels) - per the N2NOV website

So technically it seems that FDNY EMS fits the bill but not FDNY Fire

 

[lynxrufus]

The City of St. Louis has an 800MHz P25 TRS on which the fire department has digital talkgroups but the fire department doesn't seem to use 800MHz except for EMS-- not for fire suppression or rescue. Several months ago they were testing the 800MHz system as part of the daily radio test but I haven't heard that lately. Fire uses VHF analog.

Dispatch doesn't seem to monitor fireground. Just yesterday one dispatcher told river rescue units to go to fireground and another dispatcher said they couldn't do that because then dispatch wouldn't be able to communicate with them.

Fire agencies in St. Louis County (which the city isn't) use VHF analog.

 

[dhollands]

One issue with a simplex fireground channel is that there often is no way to record the traffic for later analysis. It's very common to record all traffic on a repeater channel or trunked system channel. How some agencies handle this (and from the post appears to be how Toronto does) is to have the ability to patch the simplex channel onto a trunking talkgroup somehow.

.

In the city of Toronto Fire Services, all calls are assigned a TAC tap group on the 800Mhz trunked system. The 16 District Chief Vans carry mobile repeaters setup up with UHF fire ground frequencies. If the Chief feels it is required, he will enable the repeater fireground channel 2, 3, or 4. He then informs dispatch. The fire ground channel is patched into the active TAC talkgroup on the trunked system. This way it is recorded and dispatch is still able to monitor the call.

Firefighters in the building will use he FG channel. But hose outside can remain on the trunked system.

I not exactly sure how the mobile repeater works, but I expect it may be a cross band repeater between the UHF channel and the trunked system. But it might be another method.

Fireground 5 & 6 are used when underground in the subways. They are also patched to the assigned talk group I've never heard FG 1 used.

They also have several simple 800Mhz simplex frequencies they call Talk-Around channels.

 

[Jimru]

I dont think that FDNY fire units use any trunking - except maybe for admin

FDNY EMS seems to have 1 UHF TG in their radios (which also have simplex channels) - per the N2NOV website

So technically it seems that FDNY EMS fits the bill but not FDNY Fire

Correct, in that the FDNY uses the 400mHz DOITTS TRS for admin., only. Dispatch and fireground are conventional.

Jim

 

[ThePagerGeek]

In writing your research, would you please do several paragraphs about why it would be important for dispatch to have access to fireground traffic, rather than having the FG managed by the incident commander, who would rather a direct conduit back to dispatch. If traffic is recorded onscene (a battalion chief's vehicle or a fieldcomm unit), the dispatcher may be a distraction to field operations, and, given staffing levels in communications, there may not be a dispatcher to devote his or her complete attention to the incident. Span of control applies at dispatch, too.

Exactly.

It's considered "best practice" to operate within an IDLH environment on simplex analog. NFPA 1221, NIOSH, FEMA, NFA all state the same thing. The question comes up whether the dispatch center should monitor the traffic or not. The new addendum for the 2012 revision of NFPA 1221 states they "should" monitor those frequencies. Our area is saying "yes." Part 2 of that conversation is the ability for the dispatch center to communicate BACK on that simplex frequency to the incident commander. Unfortunately, it's not in the system design now, and we have no idea if it ever will.

The fire community is obviously advocating for the capability to talk to the dispatch center on the simplex frequency to avoid the need for 2 radios, or a patch back to the trunk.

It's an evolving process...

Thanks for all the insight thus far. I'm just trying to get a picture of "what does everyone else do" to have a comparison available for further discussions

tpg

 

[datainmotion]

Denver FD has two analog 800 simplex channels for FG use in addition to their analog EDACS trunked system

Denver County, Colorado (CO) Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference

 

[zerg901]

For Toronto, I would guess that they use some 800 channels to access the repeaters in the command vans. Otherwise, everyone would have to be carrying UHF portables and 800 Mhz portables. Unless they have dual band portables with UHF and 800.

Possibly the repeaters in the command vans receive on a 800 simplex channel and transmit on UHF back to the infrastructure.

 

[krokus]

...why it would be important for dispatch to have access to fireground traffic, rather than having the FG managed by the incident commander, who would rather a direct conduit back to dispatch...

Why is that important? Having the traffic recorded is the only reason I can think of, and the radio traffic that dispatch would hear could be totally different than what is being heard on the scene.

It is part of the IC's job to relay needed information and requests, along with maintaining radio discipline. If I were IC, I would not want an outside party stepping onto my radio assignment, which is mine to manage.