Paging from Base Station

[Truck207]

I am somewhat new to this (I do know some but not a whole lot), so bear with me.

My fire dept. is having problems with our dispatch center for not receiving pages. We have all Minitor V pagers and on some calls some people will get the page and then on other calls they won't. The county has had their radio repair company come down and look at the problems and found some, but it hasn't seemed to solve a whole lot. My fire dept. has the capability of toning our pagers out from our base station (we have tried this off our own tower and everyone gets the pages, works a lot better than the county tower) and I was wondering if there was a way to have our base station receive the tone from out dispatch center and then re-page over our town's frequency? I know there is a way to do this, but how would we go about doing it? Our base station has the capability of decoding, so how would I get it to rebroadcast over our town frequency?

Sorry for the long (probably confusing) post, but we are just trying to figure this out on our own so all of our firefighters get calls.

Let me know what your thoughts are!

Thanks.

[SteveC0625]

If I understand you correctly, you want receive the tone-out on one channel and rebroadcast it on another.

To do that, you need a repeater with a store and forward device for the tones and messages. There are some limiting factors:

1. If both dispatch and town channels are VHF, they have to be several Mhz apart. Same if they are both UHF.

2. If one is VHF and the other is UHF, you'll need two separate Minitor V's as you can't do both bands in one Minitor.

3. You must have a FCC license for a repeater. Your existing license for the town channel may or may not have that on it.

Bottom line is you need a local professional, radio shop or consultant, to work with you on this. There are a lot of "if's, and's and but's" to doing this.

[davidzimmerman]

I'm also a Volunteer our base radio can do paging with a Ztron paging console.
my HT1250 portable i have set up does paging as my XTL-5000 mobile does paging.
Get the local radio shop to see what they can do for you and i'm sure things will work out.

[Mtnrider]

Years ago our depts had this. County would tone out siren and then our base on same frequency would set off our pager tones. County would wait for OUR tones to drop out and say message. Simple nothing fancy. Yes not all times you got voice message but you knew you were paged out. No repeaters involved, just simple low band.

[powerlineman]

Store & Forward Repeater Maker & Paging Regenerator: PR-10

[SteveC0625]

Originally Posted by powerlineman

Store & Forward Repeater Maker & Paging Regenerator: PR-10

There are a couple of other manufacturers that offer similar products.

Store and Forward is also a very good possibility, either via simplex on their alerting channel or via crossband repeater onto their town channel, but without knowing a lot more detail about the OP's alerting/dispatch system and their "town channel", it's still not realistic to give any real solid guidance via the forum.

[dcr_inc]

You don't need a "repeater" license for same frequency rebroadcast. You do need a station license, which you most likely already have for the base station. Store and forward is the way to go, but coordination with the county is imperative.

[SteveC0625]

Originally Posted by dcr_inc

You don't need a "repeater" license for same frequency rebroadcast. You do need a station license, which you most likely already have for the base station. Store and forward is the way to go, but coordination with the county is imperative.

No disagreement, but the OP wanted to receive alerts on the county dispatch channel and rebroadcast them over the town's channel. That's a repeater, even with store and forward in the middle. For that they'd need a repeater or control station added to their town channel's license. FB alone won't cover that.

If they intend to do store and forward onto their town's channel, they'd only need to coordinate with the other users of that channel. The county would only need to be involved if they wanted to store and forward on the dispatch channel.

[jboczek]

The store/forward will work with your existing radio and retransmit the page over the same frequency that your county dispatch uses if your base radio is set on that frequency. We've been doing this for years. You don't need a different license since you're only transmitting on a frequency that you're already licensed for. It's not a repeater, only listens for your tone, then starts recording and when the page is finished, replays it through your base station. We're getting ready to install a second one because we will be getting paged from 2 different counties on 2 different frequencies. We'll be paging from a totally diffferent frequency, which we're licensed for, so the set up is a little more complicated than just using the same frequency for receiving and retransmitting. In fact, the PR-10 is what we're using. Works well.

[quarterwave]

We used to do these on Low Band. You do not have to have frequency separation for a store and forward. In fact, for fire paging, you can't...the pager is one one freq and needs to be able to hear the page from either the local base or the "county" base....or both in some cases, one right after another.

If we were working with 33.94, we would install a Zetron with a 2-tone decode at the firehouse. That base would receive the page (along with some pagers in range) and the 2-tone board, like a pager, would trigger a 30 second recording on the Zetron, it would record the page, and then when the carrier dropped, it would key the local base and transmit that set of tones, and the message again, then it would reset itself and wait for the next time. Worked great....for years. The only caveat for dispatching...they must put out the original page by sending the tones at least twice. That way the Zetron records the second set and the message after for retransmit.

[Truck207]

Thanks for all the responses. Our county dispatch runs in the 159.135 and our town runs 155.895. With the Store and Forward, can you receive and record on 159.135 and then rebroadcast on 155.895? Our base station is capable of paging (it is a Kenwood TK-8360. Again today we had a call and I was standing besides one of our members and his pager never went off. I believe there is something wrong with either their consoles they are running or with the towers. If we send a page from our base station through our own tower, everyone of our members gets the page, no problems. We are just trying to figure out a way to re-tone through our towns frequency off our own tower.

[quarterwave]

Originally Posted by Truck207

Thanks for all the responses. Our county dispatch runs in the 159.135 and our town runs 155.895. With the Store and Forward, can you receive and record on 159.135 and then rebroadcast on 155.895? Our base station is capable of paging (it is a Kenwood TK-8360. Again today we had a call and I was standing besides one of our members and his pager never went off. I believe there is something wrong with either their consoles they are running or with the towers. If we send a page from our base station through our own tower, everyone of our members gets the page, no problems. We are just trying to figure out a way to re-tone through our towns frequency off our own tower.

Yes, but....

Do your pagers dual watch or scan? In other words, how are you able to get pages on 2 channels. I know some pagers do this, but I have dealt with issues in the past where I have heard this type of thing only to find out it wasn't really that the pager wasn't getting the page, it was that they just weren't hearing stuff on their pager that they heard on a portable radio.

I am guessing here that your countywide dispatch is on one one channel and you operate your department on another after dispatched?

Your base station may be "capable" but you may still need outboard encode/decode equipment to make it work. You are going to need a radio co. to do this....you can't DIY a system like that.

Even though they are on different freqs, it would still accomplish the same thing, I am just curious about your setup.

[Truck207]

Originally Posted by quarterwave

Yes, but....

Do your pagers dual watch or scan? In other words, how are you able to get pages on 2 channels. I know some pagers do this, but I have dealt with issues in the past where I have heard this type of thing only to find out it wasn't really that the pager wasn't getting the page, it was that they just weren't hearing stuff on their pager that they heard on a portable radio.

Yes, our pagers have 2 channels and they are able to scan both channels. Each channel you can program so it receives tones.

I am guessing here that your countywide dispatch is on one one channel and you operate your department on another after dispatched? Correct.

Your base station may be "capable" but you may still need outboard encode/decode equipment to make it work. You are going to need a radio co. to do this....you can't DIY a system like that.

Our base station we have now, can encode and decode (have already set the radio up to do it). I just need to know how to get it to receive the tones and then rebroadcast the page over a different channel.

Even though they are on different freqs, it would still accomplish the same thing, I am just curious about your setup.

My replies are at the end of your questions.

Thanks.

[quarterwave]

And you use the same tones on both freqs?

Ok, I don't *think* it would be best to use the internal decode and encode, but you might ask a Kenwood dealer (you did say Kenwood?). Essentially, if the decoder can trigger a Zetron or Zetron-like box upon activation, and then key the base and play the recorded tones and message by way of it's accessory connector...then ok. If not, you will need a decoder outboard of the base and connected to the Zetron as a trigger for it.

Again...we won't resolve this here, and it's not exactly a DIY, unless you have done lots of radio work.

[jeatock]

I use this setup. Backwards from your present situation, but VERY effective. My home setup is all VHF, but I'm consulting with another county that uses UHF control and VHF paging. Same thing, using cross band base radios

Our county Dispatch has five page 'channels' in their console (plus a local backup). All transmit on the same control (FX1) frequency but with specific tones for each target area.

Each of our five target areas has a repeater with bulletproof local coverage for the agencies they service- all Rx freq's are the same (but with different Rx tones), and all paging bases county-wide transmit on one common frequency and squelch tone. (We use the same radio protocol in all pagers, but with different 2-tone and 5-tone data. Dual channel scanning pages are not required.)

Our 'center of the county' paging repeater has a second receiver that receives ALL pages and sends them to a 'store and forward' unit. Zetron and CPIComm make similar units, and there are others out there.

Whenever dispatch pages a depatment it is FIRST transmitted via the best local repeater for whomever they are calling. (Remember, each paging repeater has a unique input squelch code.)

The centrally located second receiver catches ALL pages and sends them to the store and forward unit. I use a multi-tone receiver, but a CS receiver with a directional antenna and appropriate attenuation will do the same thing.

The Zetron waits for received COR to drop before it kicks any page out of the big bad central repeater via a wired connection. I have an adjustable delay circuit between the receiver COR output and the store and forward COR input that holds COR active for a while to catch additional pages and prevent automatic transmitting while any base is transmitting. 30 seconds was too long, 15 seconds is just about right.

When the COR timer runs down, the central repeater automatically replays all pages.

The result: every page hits the targeted area first, and all pages for county agencies are automatically resent from the big bad transmitter in the middle of the area. Automatic replay, redundancy and increased situational awareness. Because we are all on the same page (pun intended) multi-discipline, group and regional signalling is easy. A remote fire agency and the central EMS agency can be notified with a single transmission.

The automatic replay is also great for those middle of the night calls. You are more likely to be awake and listening for the replay while searching for your shoes. If your pager doesn't catch the replay, it should have already alerted and your scanner probably will let you hear the replay. If you are away from your home area, there is a much better chance that your pager will alert at least once.

There are also cell phone notification systems out there. I use 2-Tone detect. Not good for life and safety critical notification due to time delays and outright failures, but a third belt for your belt and suspenders plan that works 80% of the time. My Chief works out of pager coverage, and uses the cell system to know when and why the folks at home were called.

As long as all of your transmitters are licensed, you are good to go, but adding FB2 authorization for every repeater location can't hurt. Do your own fee-free FCC601 modification. Receivers are not licensed.

NFPA says that if a system generates more than 750 pages a year a dedicated page-only channel is recommended. We have additional command and control channels for 2-way communication, and only use our common multi-agency paging channel for initial notification- no talk back.

[krokus]

Why not remote the base, so the dispatch center can operate it?

This will not be a huge expense, but will take some effort.

[quarterwave]

Originally Posted by jeatock

I use this setup. Backwards from your present situation, but VERY effective. My home setup is all VHF, but I'm consulting with another county that uses UHF control and VHF paging. Same thing, using cross band base radios

Our county Dispatch has five page 'channels' in their console (plus a local backup). All transmit on the same control (FX1) frequency but with specific tones for each target area.

Each of our five target areas has a repeater with bulletproof local coverage for the agencies they service- all Rx freq's are the same (but with different Rx tones), and all paging bases county-wide transmit on one common frequency and squelch tone. (We use the same radio protocol in all pagers, but with different 2-tone and 5-tone data. Dual channel scanning pages are not required.)

Our 'center of the county' paging repeater has a second receiver that receives ALL pages and sends them to a 'store and forward' unit. Zetron and CPIComm make similar units, and there are others out there.

Whenever dispatch pages a depatment it is FIRST transmitted via the best local repeater for whomever they are calling. (Remember, each paging repeater has a unique input squelch code.)

The centrally located second receiver catches ALL pages and sends them to the store and forward unit. I use a multi-tone receiver, but a CS receiver with a directional antenna and appropriate attenuation will do the same thing.

The Zetron waits for received COR to drop before it kicks any page out of the big bad central repeater via a wired connection. I have an adjustable delay circuit between the receiver COR output and the store and forward COR input that holds COR active for a while to catch additional pages and prevent automatic transmitting while any base is transmitting. 30 seconds was too long, 15 seconds is just about right.

When the COR timer runs down, the central repeater automatically replays all pages.

The result: every page hits the targeted area first, and all pages for county agencies are automatically resent from the big bad transmitter in the middle of the area. Automatic replay, redundancy and increased situational awareness. Because we are all on the same page (pun intended) multi-discipline, group and regional signalling is easy. A remote fire agency and the central EMS agency can be notified with a single transmission.

The automatic replay is also great for those middle of the night calls. You are more likely to be awake and listening for the replay while searching for your shoes. If your pager doesn't catch the replay, it should have already alerted and your scanner probably will let you hear the replay. If you are away from your home area, there is a much better chance that your pager will alert at least once.

There are also cell phone notification systems out there. I use 2-Tone detect. Not good for life and safety critical notification due to time delays and outright failures, but a third belt for your belt and suspenders plan that works 80% of the time. My Chief works out of pager coverage, and uses the cell system to know when and why the folks at home were called.

As long as all of your transmitters are licensed, you are good to go, but adding FB2 authorization for every repeater location can't hurt. Do your own fee-free FCC601 modification. Receivers are not licensed.

NFPA says that if a system generates more than 750 pages a year a dedicated page-only channel is recommended. We have additional command and control channels for 2-way communication, and only use our common multi-agency paging channel for initial notification- no talk back.

Nice write-up, sounds like a good system.

[quarterwave]

Originally Posted by krokus

Why not remote the base, so the dispatch center can operate it?

This will not be a huge expense, but will take some effort.

Even though in my county, the transmitters are on same freq (the OP was not) that is what they do here. They are now paging off the "Main" site first and then off the "local" wireline controlled base second, and giving the message off the "Main"...I assume so the dispatcher isn't doing ALL of it twice. Around here things are very busy...they are talking about updating the fire system, but this should have been done 10-15 years ago...so they limp along with inadequate stuff and cry about how it wont' work right. No one takes responsibility to get it done. They essentially use a main repeater for everything, and some band-aided in local repeaters via wireline for more coverage. The biggest problem is each township's volunteers wants it's own repeater and thinks that fixes everything....they can't figure out that until they actually revise the system and add channels...they all still have to share air time. Crazy bunch.

The only drawback to remote base is the wireline cost, but it's worth it...paging and ROIP is a mess.

[cifn2]

Sounds like your dispatch needs to get a higher power transmitter, or raise their antenna height if possible. Some of the local fire departments have store and forward type devices on their FD repeaters. After the tones and dispatch message there is a few second delay then once the carrier drops, the device kicks in and re-transmits the tones and message. It sometimes is a bad thing, when people talk immediately after the dispatch and the re-transmit hasn't started it can end up with extra audio getting repeated which should not be. But functions as needed. But not sure why they have it, other than so the firefighters get the message 2 times, instead of a single time. Because dispatch is put out on the repeaters to start with.

[jim202]

Where do you come up with the need for a repeater license for a store and forward operation. It is simplex operation and has been done for eons in many radio systems around the country. Used more in the mountains than other areas of the country.

Big problem now is with the narrow banding and deviation levels of the tones being sent to activate the pagers. It will work, but the tones need to be sent at the full voice deviation of the narrow banded channels and not the 33% to 40% that was done with the wide band operation.

You may also have to change the page tones to get off the low tones and the real high tones as they don't play well on a narrow banded radio system.

Jim

Originally Posted by SteveC0625

No disagreement, but the OP wanted to receive alerts on the county dispatch channel and rebroadcast them over the town's channel. That's a repeater, even with store and forward in the middle. For that they'd need a repeater or control station added to their town channel's license. FB alone won't cover that.

If they intend to do store and forward onto their town's channel, they'd only need to coordinate with the other users of that channel. The county would only need to be involved if they wanted to store and forward on the dispatch channel.