RadioReference on Facebook   RadioReference on Twitter   RadioReference Blog
 

Go Back   The RadioReference.com Forums > Commercial, Professional Radio and Personal Radio > Industry Discussion


Industry Discussion - General discussion forum for commercial and professional radio technologies. This includes manufacturers not listed below.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2005, 4:49 PM
Member
   
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 22
Default TETRA scanner

Hello guys,
I'm quite new to trunking ; I live in Europe ... As i heard Europe=TETRA trunking... Is there any TETRA scanner out there... Is there any chance that i'll be encountering anything other than TETRA in europe?

Thanks
Alex!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2005, 5:09 PM
Wiki Admin Emeritus
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Bowie, Md.
Posts: 21,038
Default

AFAIK there's nothing out there that can handle TETRA. And yes, some Euro countries also use MPT1327 (which the Winradio Trunking option can copy), and a few other modes, I'm sure.

73s Mike
__________________
co-author, HF Digital Decoding
HF Forum moderator, RadioReference
Friends don't let friends buy Scancat Lite Plus!
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2005, 5:46 PM
Completely Banned for the Greater Good
  Audio Feed Provider
Audio Feed Provider
Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 11,438
Default

TETRA = encrypted too, so for that reason there's no need to even consider waiting for the day when one would be available.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2005, 9:07 PM
Raccon's Avatar
Member
   
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 405
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by devalex
Hello guys,
I'm quite new to trunking ; I live in Europe ... As i heard Europe=TETRA trunking... Is there any TETRA scanner out there... Is there any chance that i'll be encountering anything other than TETRA in europe?

Thanks
Alex!
Besides TETRA there are lot's of (old) analog trunking systems and several Tetrapol networks, the latter being a digital system (FDMA based). Maybe others.
Though Tetrapol has a similar name to TETRA the two have nothing to do with each other; Tetrapol is a proprietary technology that competes with TETRA which is based on an ETSI standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdale
TETRA = encrypted too, so for that reason there's no need to even consider waiting for the day when one would be available.
Encryption in TETRA is optional, though I guess it's safe to assume most PSS operators will use it.
__________________
Rgds,
Raccon
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2005, 3:11 AM
Member
   
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 22
Default encryption :(((

With so much encryption starting to show-off, some may say what is the fuzz to start this hobby ... I mean , in a couple of say.... 5,6,7 years almost everybody will use encryption ... And i know i should not ask this ... but just for the sake of science and technology ... is there any way one can interfere between the exchange of encryption keys ,or hijack a connection , like a internet programmer can hijack a TCP connection , and control the two ends, thus hearring the conversation ... Is this less probable concerning a TETRA system, that you guys say has option for encryption , and more probable to digital radio comunications ???


Sorry for the english !!!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2005, 7:37 AM
N_Jay's Avatar
Not Posting
   
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Outside the big city in the Midwest
Posts: 10,285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by devalex
With so much encryption starting to show-off, some may say what is the fuzz to start this hobby ... I mean , in a couple of say.... 5,6,7 years almost everybody will use encryption ... And i know i should not ask this ... but just for the sake of science and technology ... is there any way one can interfere between the exchange of encryption keys ,or hijack a connection , like a internet programmer can hijack a TCP connection , and control the two ends, thus hearring the conversation ... Is this less probable concerning a TETRA system, that you guys say has option for encryption , and more probable to digital radio comunications ???


Sorry for the english !!!
These encryption systems are designed by REALLY smart and WELL FUNDED people , to foil REALLY SMART and WELL FUNDED adversaries.

Can they be broken, yes, (Theoretically)
Is it likely that they will be broken, (In a meaningful way) it's your guess.
(My guess is "No")
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2005, 11:14 PM
Raccon's Avatar
Member
   
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 405
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by devalex
With so much encryption starting to show-off, some may say what is the fuzz to start this hobby ... I mean , in a couple of say.... 5,6,7 years almost everybody will use encryption ... And i know i should not ask this ... but just for the sake of science and technology ... is there any way one can interfere between the exchange of encryption keys ,or hijack a connection , like a internet programmer can hijack a TCP connection , and control the two ends, thus hearring the conversation ... Is this less probable concerning a TETRA system, that you guys say has option for encryption , and more probable to digital radio comunications ???


Sorry for the english !!!
The keys in TETRA are never transmitted through the network, so it's not possible to intercept them. Hijacking a connection is not possible either as the air-interface encryption (AIE) also protects the signalling (calls setup messages, radio IDs etc.), beside the voice communication itself of course.
You could in theory crack the key using a brute force attack (that is trying all possible keys) but it would take such a long time and a lot of money that it's not really feasible.

BTW: If AIE alone for some reason is not good enough the users can choose to implement end-to-end encryption (E2EE) to protect the communication further.
__________________
Rgds,
Raccon
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2005, 6:43 AM
N_Jay's Avatar
Not Posting
   
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Outside the big city in the Midwest
Posts: 10,285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raccon
The keys in TETRA are never transmitted through the network, so it's not possible to intercept them. Hijacking a connection is not possible either as the air-interface encryption (AIE) also protects the signalling (calls setup messages, radio IDs etc.), beside the voice communication itself of course.
You could in theory crack the key using a brute force attack (that is trying all possible keys) but it would take such a long time and a lot of money that it's not really feasible.

BTW: If AIE alone for some reason is not good enough the users can choose to implement end-to-end encryption (E2EE) to protect the communication further.
Besides its a cellular architecture system so all you would hear are parts of conversations unless a unit in the group happens to be right in your area.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2011, 7:45 AM
Member
   
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 82
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by N_Jay View Post
These encryption systems are designed by REALLY smart and WELL FUNDED people , to foil REALLY SMART and WELL FUNDED adversaries.

Can they be broken, yes, (Theoretically)
Is it likely that they will be broken, (In a meaningful way) it's your guess.
(My guess is "No")
I think you might be surprised. I'm not saying that there is or isn't a way to get around the security of TETRA, but I would not assume that there is not, because often even systems designed by REALLY smart and WELL FUNDED people have some big flaws.

It's not necessarily the encryption itself that is the flaw. The encryption may be too strong to break, but there are often "back door" ways of getting the key. Remember the system does not simply have to simply encrypt end to end conversations, but also has to manage updating keys and seeds to end users and to coordinate which groups are authorized to hear what etc.

Could there be a flaw in the system to allow monitoring by grabbing the key indirectly or spoofing being authorized etc? There has been before, even in REALLY smart/well funded systems.

Remember, nearly every DRM system has been broken, despite the fact that companies invested a hell of a lot of money in them. DirecTV took more than a decade and several new encryption methods before they finally managed to get their signals more or less secure. Last I saw, several other satellite tv systems still had significant problems with signal theft despite huge efforts to improve security. Many pieces of professional software turn out to have huge security flaws in them. And yes, even parts of the GSM system have been compromised.


So while I would not say that I know TETRA to have weaknesses that can be exploited, I would not presume that it does not simply because a lot of effort went into it.

BTW: I'm only commenting on this from a technical perspective, not a legal one. If it can be done it still may well be illegal, in which case I can't condone it, so don't start saying that I'm encouraging that.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2011, 1:19 PM
Raccon's Avatar
Member
   
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 405
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb1ipd View Post
It's not necessarily the encryption itself that is the flaw. The encryption may be too strong to break, but there are often "back door" ways of getting the key. Remember the system does not simply have to simply encrypt end to end conversations, but also has to manage updating keys and seeds to end users and to coordinate which groups are authorized to hear what etc.
Standard Air Interface Encryption in TETRA is not end to end, it is, as the name implies, only in the air. I.e. between terminal and base station. And it does encrypt the signaling between base station and terminal, too, not just voice and data. So if and when OTAR (over the air re-keying) is used, the key transfer is also protected.
__________________
Rgds,
Raccon
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 6:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
All information here is Copyright 2012 by RadioReference.com LLC and Lindsay C. Blanton III.Ad Management by RedTyger
Copyright 2015 by RadioReference.com LLC Privacy Policy  |  Terms and Conditions