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Old 12-03-2013, 10:05 PM
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Default Part 90 type approval and FPP

Does having the front panel programming turned on void the type approval? I know that some Motorola and Icom handhelds have a way to enable this, but it appears the function was intended for radio techs.

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Old 12-03-2013, 10:44 PM
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FPP was designed for wildland firefighting for federal fire agencies.
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Old 12-04-2013, 4:39 AM
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For the Motorola, as long as the FPP requires the use of both the side dongle and the password, no it does not invalidate its Part 90 certification.

If it gets re-flashed to lose the need for the dongle, yes that makes the radio no longer Part 90 certificated.
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Old 12-04-2013, 6:43 AM
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Default Wrong

100% not true. If you buy a radio from Motorola with Q52 FPP it has the same FCC ID. It has no affect at all.
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Old 12-04-2013, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFPM571 View Post
FPP was designed for wildland firefighting for federal fire agencies.
And it's amazing how well it works. Give a group who needs interoperability the knowledge to program correctly, and radios capable of it, and they can talk to each other!! Granted, it's usually conventional systems, limited for the most part to one band (VHF-Hi), but it's a very successful model.

Alternatively, you can issue whiz-bang radios with all kinds of capabilities, keep the knowledge of how to really use them away from the end user, and it doesn't matter what fancy interoperability channels you have programmed in, nobody can talk to anybody.
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Old 12-04-2013, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanny19 View Post
And it's amazing how well it works. Give a group who needs interoperability the knowledge to program correctly, and radios capable of it, and they can talk to each other!! Granted, it's usually conventional systems, limited for the most part to one band (VHF-Hi), but it's a very successful model.

Alternatively, you can issue whiz-bang radios with all kinds of capabilities, keep the knowledge of how to really use them away from the end user, and it doesn't matter what fancy interoperability channels you have programmed in, nobody can talk to anybody.
I'm not in-industry for radios per se, but if I let people in my industry galavant around and do whatever they wanted to the gear I build/maintain, mayhem would occur within minutes of handing over the gear.

Mayhem.
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Old 12-04-2013, 1:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFPM571 View Post
FPP was designed for wildland firefighting for federal fire agencies.
There were FPP mobiles on the market back in the '80's. I had a Wilson that did that. I don't believe the function was created exclusively for one purpose. FPP was originally the only way that some radios could be programmed. It could be disabled with an internal jumper to supposedly prevent the user from programming but giving the techs and easy way to do so. That stuff was pulled off the market pretty quickly when folks learned about the jumper and started programming in frequencies that they should not be using.
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Old 12-04-2013, 4:22 PM
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the wilsons were only FPP if you put the bypass switch in them. They weren't designed as FPP . That was just how they were programmed. Adding the switch made it easier. A department I worked on had those in their cars til the early 2000's
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Old 12-04-2013, 4:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gesucks View Post
100% not true. If you buy a radio from Motorola with Q52 FPP it has the same FCC ID. It has no affect at all.
The FCC does not certificate radios based on its available feature sets, they leave that to the manufacturer to conform to the applicable rules. If you are a Part 90 licensee Motorola will not sell you a radio with Q52 FPP no matter how hard you try.

Here is the specific rule:
90.203 Certification required

(g) Transmitters having frequency
programming capability and that are
designed to operate above 25 MHz are
exempt from paragraphs (e) and (f) of
this section if the design of such transmitters:
(1) Is such that transmitters with external
controls normally available to the operator must be internally modified
to place the equipment in the programmable
mode. Further, while in the
programmable mode, the equipment
shall not be capable of transmitting.
The procedures for making the modification
and altering the frequency program
shall not be made available with
the operating information normally
supplied to the end user of the equipment;
or
(2) Requires the transmitter to be programmed
for frequencies through controls
normally inaccessible to the operator;
or
(3) Requires equipment to be programmed
for frequencies through use
of external devices or specifically programmed
modules made available only
to service/maintenance personnel; or (AKA - FPP Dongle)
(4) Requires equipment to be programmed
through cloning (copying a
program directly from another transmitter)
using devices and procedures
made available only to service/maintenance
personnel.

Last edited by KS4VT; 12-04-2013 at 5:02 PM..
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Old 12-04-2013, 6:46 PM
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Default Part 90 type approval and FPP

Normally not accessible to the operator is key. Take a look at the Harris XG-100p and XG-100m for example. They are fully FPP for conventional channels and access is controlled by a password/pin. As such, they programming feature is not normally available to the operator assuming that password/pin isn't supplied to the operator.


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Old 12-04-2013, 7:18 PM
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Lets not forget that NTIA has its own set of rules that is much more flexible than Part 90 and a lot of these radios are usable in both applications. Just because a specific feature is available in a radio, it does not mean that it is allowable in all or certain areas of the spectrum.
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Old 12-05-2013, 7:15 PM
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I've used this technology and it's great. as long as you have a red label battery slap it on do your programming and then replace it I believe you are good to go. I use it with my moto 1550's
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Old 12-05-2013, 8:17 PM
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Is it also true to fact if a radio is flashed for q52/53 and it is not done by the /\/\ depot plant or legit authorized service shop or any flash for matter it is illegal or prosecutable by M for there book of violations to software rights? Just figured I'd ask because you see more fpp on bay and wondered f those were ticking time bombs for M to go after. Not sure but fgured I'd ask.
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Old 12-05-2013, 8:24 PM
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Thanks for the heads up.
I am MOL customer. in fact I received my cert so I can now program my radios in narrow band. I'll have to look. I have never seen them on Greed bay before. I could be wrong but i think I might have had to enable that feature in the proper SW before allowing the Battery to work. It's been a while I forgot.
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Last edited by giguchan; 12-05-2013 at 8:27 PM..
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Old 12-05-2013, 8:25 PM
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No, they aren't going to try to do anything about Q52 and Q53. Don't worry about it.
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Old 12-05-2013, 8:28 PM
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That's good to know!
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Old 12-08-2013, 9:53 PM
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Nowadays I dont see the hype about FPP. Its not like it used to be when part 90 radio was somewhat restricted on what the avearage joe shmo could do as far as programming goes. Today, we have multi band radios on amazon selling for 35 dollars with free programming software. That parents buy for their kids as walkie talkies and just type in any old frequency... Sad, but true.
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Old 12-08-2013, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12dbsinad View Post
Nowadays I dont see the hype about FPP. Its not like it used to be when part 90 radio was somewhat restricted on what the avearage joe shmo could do as far as programming goes. Today, we have multi band radios on amazon selling for 35 dollars with free programming software. That parents buy for their kids as walkie talkies and just type in any old frequency... Sad, but true.
What? Are you kidding? Its still illegal. In Part 90, and in fact, in any of the parts covered by most off the shelf radios (except MURS and FRS) you MUST have a license to transmit. You CANNOT have an FPP capable radio in any radio service except Part 97 or services covered by NTIA. Fed Gov and Amateur are all that are exempt from the FPP rules. That is the 'hype'. You the operator are responsible for whatever you program or allow to be programmed into a radio you own. If any parent is foolish enough to buy their kids a two way radio and just 'type in any old frequency' then woe be unto them when the guy with the itty bitty badge from the FCC shows up.

There is a very good reason the FCC does not sanction front panel programmable radios. I don't either, it makes me nervous. Its bad enough when I see some fire department guy attempting to program his departments radios 'because the chief told me to', let alone some doofus who just bought one off eBay and wants to talk to the 'po-po'.

There have no changes to what the 'average Joe Schmoe' can do on Part 90 as far as programming is concerned. NOTHING has changed except the amount of the fines has gone up by a factor of 10. The FCC has only changed the focus of responsibility from the programmer/service shop to the licensee. But there still is plenty of precedence where the FCC has held the service shop liable, too.
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Old 12-09-2013, 7:22 AM
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What? Are you kidding? Its still illegal. In Part 90, and in fact, in any of the parts covered by most off the shelf radios (except MURS and FRS) you MUST have a license to transmit. You CANNOT have an FPP capable radio in any radio service except Part 97 or services covered by NTIA. Fed Gov and Amateur are all that are exempt from the FPP rules. That is the 'hype'. You the operator are responsible for whatever you program or allow to be programmed into a radio you own. If any parent is foolish enough to buy their kids a two way radio and just 'type in any old frequency' then woe be unto them when the guy with the itty bitty badge from the FCC shows up.

There is a very good reason the FCC does not sanction front panel programmable radios. I don't either, it makes me nervous. Its bad enough when I see some fire department guy attempting to program his departments radios 'because the chief told me to', let alone some doofus who just bought one off eBay and wants to talk to the 'po-po'.

There have no changes to what the 'average Joe Schmoe' can do on Part 90 as far as programming is concerned. NOTHING has changed except the amount of the fines has gone up by a factor of 10. The FCC has only changed the focus of responsibility from the programmer/service shop to the licensee. But there still is plenty of precedence where the FCC has held the service shop liable, too.

Clearly, you must live in la la land. The fact of the matter is it has changed. More unqualified people get their hands on radios and start programming "whatever" than you can imagine. I understand what you are saying about a parent buying a "walkie talkie" for their child, but that too happens. I mean, a 35 dollar radio with free software thats part 90 accepted, seriously? Thats the cost of a good walmart bubble pack radio "you know the 35 mile range ones" so yes I can see how one could be bought as a toy. You mention fire personel programming radios and hate when you see it... I see more and more of this activity everyday.
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Old 12-09-2013, 7:28 AM
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Is this the part where the "expert" hobbyists come in and tell the radio professionals how much smarter they are?
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