T-Band Giveback - Why?????

[LubeckTech]

What does the FCC want to do with 470mhz - 512mhz?
All I have seen is it will be auctioned off but to who and for what purpose??

 

[CrabbyMilton]

I would imagine private business if I had to make a 2 cent guess.

 

[kennyblues]

Because the Cell phone industry has plenty of money to buy Politicians, who get laws passed to benefit them.
I don't believe that this will ever happen, way too many public safety agencies throughout the Country use this area of the spectrum, it would cost billions of dollars to replace all the radios and infrastructure, and politicians could care less about our decaying infrastructure in this Country.

 

[CrabbyMilton]

Go to any public place. A park/zoo, mall, museum, grocery store, restaurant interstate highway, even church and you will see people of all ages either talking or texting on their phones. This require RF. SO I can't begrudge the cell phone companies since people demand service and cell phone companies are trying to deliver. It does make me wonder when I see people who I outlined carrying out what I described why they even leave the house if they are barley paying attention to the environment they elected to visit.

 

[mikewazowski]

Thread moved to Industry Discussion.

 

[MTS2000des]

SO I can't begrudge the cell phone companies since people demand service and cell phone companies are trying to deliver.

I do. The "father" of the modern cellphone, Dr. Martin Cooper himself said in a CSPAN interview that public safety radio spectrum should be protected, and that the cellular industry need to develop more spectrum efficient technology and make better use of the spectrum they have:

Communicators Martin Cooper | Video | C-SPAN.org

If anyone is more qualified to comment on the industry and it's use of radio spectrum, it would be him.

The fact is that T-band is utilized by some of the largest cities in the nation for vetted, cost-effective, reliable, mission critical voice communications for public safety and land mobile, and has been for the greater part of over four decades.

The take back was a slimy move by a corporate owned congress who did not consider the needs of public safety nor anyone else but the greedy telecom cartels.

Ask yourself this: if every other part 90 user has been forced by law to go to even narrower bandwidth in the name of "spectral efficiency" why do the cartels get a break? They want more and more and are doing little to invest in more efficient technologies.

The notion that 700MHz is the "end all" public safety band is laughable. Not enough space exists to accommodate P25 phase 1 and phase 2 systems in those large metro areas who are getting displaced, not to mention the cost of constructing those replacement goes into the billions, billions of which fall upon the shoulders of taxpayers.

What a sham. So typical of this corporate government that rules this country.

 

[CrabbyMilton]

I'm not suggesting that public safety be kicked off UHF-T before the licence would expire. But as I stated, there is more and more demand for wireless so what else can be done other than calling the cell phone companies evil? Thank your neighbors, relatives, friends, coworkers who cna't seem to put their wireless device down for five minutes.

 

[MTS2000des]

I'm not suggesting that public safety be kicked off UHF-T before the licence would expire.

Did you watch Dr. Cooper's interview? I won't re-state the obvious. Public safety needs access to spectrum, and not just 700MHz. There is no "one size fits all" solution for public safety.

But as I stated, there is more and more demand for wireless so what else can be done other than calling the cell phone companies evil?

Again, as Dr. Cooper said in his interview, carriers should be working with vendors and scientists to develop new technologies, modulation techniques and network designs that are more efficient use of the spectrum that is available.

Radio spectrum is like air and water: it is a finite resource. Just as we should be protecting our physical environment, we have to do the same with the electromagnetic spectra.

The cell phone cartels are just as bad as the oil cartels who are raping the land through fracking. The excuse that there is "demand" does not negate the need for caring for the environment in which they exist, nor should they be allowed carte blanche access to every MHz of every band because people can't stay off Facebook while driving.

Thank your neighbors, relatives, friends, coworkers who cna't seem to put their wireless device down for five minutes.

I don't disagree there, but it is also incumbent upon those of us who understand the many layers of this issue to educate our fellow general public on how costly to them it can be if careless squandering of our "radio real estate" continues and thus, can impact them. The loss of other vital services including free OTA TV, broadcast radio, etc. These services are just as important and those businesses score to lose revenue and investments as well. Who is looking out for them?

 

[CrabbyMilton]

I understand that radio spectrum is finite. That's a major factor in why so many systems public and private are of the trunked design and many are digital.I'm confident that scientists and engineers will come up with solutions to this.
You did lose me when you went off on your oil fracking talking points. We can't just shut things down.

 

[rapidcharger]

But as I stated, there is more and more demand for wireless so what else can be done other than calling the cell phone companies evil? Thank your neighbors, relatives, friends, coworkers who cna't seem to put their wireless device down for five minutes.

It's not the customers fault. If the supply of something goes down, the price goes up. The wireless cartels could simply raise the price if what they are offering is in limited supply. But no, they're doing what the oil and gas industries are trying to do, which is get their grubby hand on every last drop of a finite resource and hog it for their own profits. They don't care one bit about managing the resource. They just want to juice every last drop out.

I understand that radio spectrum is finite. That's a major factor in why so many systems public and private are of the trunked design and many are digital.I'm confident that scientists and engineers will come up with solutions to this.
You did lose me when you went off on your oil fracking talking points. We can't just shut things down.

Well it's a very good comparison to fracking. Both finite resources. Both need to be carefully managed for the greater good.
Trunked radio is not helping. Most places keep their old licenses and many places have even more frequencies that they had before and way more than they need- I'm talking small cities and towns here primarily. Someone should go through and clean up all the licenses and frequencies that are not being used and allocate frequencies based on need. Rationing, if you will.

 

[DisasterGuy]

The T-Band wasn't "stolen" from public safety, it was traded. The trade involved 700MHz D-Block going to public safety broadband (aka FirstNET). Now if FirstNET will ever actually come to be is another story all together.

 

[MTS2000des]

The T-Band wasn't "stolen" from public safety, it was traded.

Traded without the consent of the licensees. That is like me trading off your car without your permission, you're driving a car you like, that you pay for, that is economical for you. I give you this promise of a Mercedes.

Yeah, how's that not stealing?

The trade involved 700MHz D-Block going to public safety broadband (aka FirstNET)..

Something that is much less valuable compared to what was traded off. D-block is 758-763/788-793, UHF T-band comprised how much CONTIGUOUS spectrum?

Now if FirstNET will ever actually come to be is another story all together.

You and I both know how it's going to play out. A few contractors (no names here) will get billions, the taxpayers will get screwed, and public safety will get nothing.

Meanwhile, the 470-520MHz band went to the cartels to the highest bidder and the biggest cities in America who have vested interest in mature, reliable, and COST EFFECTIVE mission critical voice just got the eviction notice.

What a deal- NOT.

 

[DisasterGuy]

One word explains it: Congress

 

[mlmummert]

One word explains it: Congress

And we never said they understand physics.

 

[ecps92]

O they do. Trickle Down :evil:

And we never said they understand physics.

 

[radioman2001]

I expect the next White House occupant to kill the giveback. Too many agencies are using it, Congress won't pay for it's replacement, First Net is a Dud,plus they still havn't figured out how to deal with the 20-30% of T-band users who are not Public Safety and are not included in the Bill.

 

[DisasterGuy]

I know most regions are giving preference to T Band holders for 700 narrowband but you hit the nail on the head regarding the number of systems that carry traffic not allowable on 700.

 

[902]

History first...

T-Band wasn't bartered - at least not directly.

When the initial auction of the upper D Block failed (and here) under the Public Safety Spectrum Trust - ostensibly under unrealistic service requirements which failed to make a case on adequate return on investment for potential bidders, there had been a good deal of lobbying of the House Energy and Commerce Committee by professional associations to "give" the spectrum to public safety. In September, 2009, support for this plan had grown to include then and former Congressional Representatives, Senators, the U.S. Attorney General, and former DHS Secretary, along with a prominent police commissioner and chief in three unique areas of the country.

By February of 2011, there had been significant traction to the effort with the meeting of the "Public Safety Alliance," which included individuals who purported to speak for the collective of public safety interests. In closed door sessions, members of Congress had demanded a quid pro quo "give back" of spectrum. The requirement for such had been that it could be an aggregated block sufficient for broadband deployment. The group proffered 70 cm and a subsequent bill by Congressman Peter King called for the giveback of 420 - 440 MHz AND 450 - 470 MHz (in its ENTIRETY). The ARRL fought this initiative on behalf of the 70 cm band and other interests fought on behalf of their spectrum domain.

What most people do not realize is that the issue of safety is like orphans and puppy dogs. No one is against them when in the public eye, but behind closed doors, it's "needy."

The interests who endeavored to educate Congress on the "give-back" stipulations were successful in retaining the potentially affected portion of 70 cm (at least for the moment), and 450 - 470 MHz. When the text of H.R. 3630 came out, 470 - 512 MHz had been slipped into Section 6103, blindsiding many who had been involved in the process.

 

[SCPD]

Deep pockets

The T-Band wasn't "stolen" from public safety, it was traded. The trade involved 700MHz D-Block going to public safety broadband (aka FirstNET). Now if FirstNET will ever actually come to be is another story all together.

I can't even imagine how much money is going to have to be spent on FirstNet to get hallway decent coverage in even half the country. Here's a frequency band where just about anything can reflect, refract and absorb the signal. Anywhere it's hilly, coverage is going to have more holes than a groundhog convention at a golf course. There's money to be made buying stock in the equipment manufacturers for this grand project.

 

[SteveC0625]

I can't even imagine how much money is going to have to be spent on FirstNet to get hallway decent coverage in even half the country. Here's a frequency band where just about anything can reflect, refract and absorb the signal. Anywhere it's hilly, coverage is going to have more holes than a groundhog convention at a golf course. There's money to be made buying stock in the equipment manufacturers for this grand project.

I just received a request from state health for ideas on how FirstNet can be used for EMS in New York State. Given that my county is on the southern edge of the Adirondacks with very spotty cellular coverage, I'm anticipating that we'll never see any FirstNet coverage up here at all even if it is built up well in urban areas.

Somebody's gettin' rich but it sure ain't us.