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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2017, 3:23 PM
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Default New system recommendations

Hello,

I have a question about 2 systems that we are going to replace. One being our fire repeater and one being the sheriff departments repeater. Our system is a rick'd CDM-750 with amp and duplexer thats about 17yr old and we are moving sites. The sheriff departments is a Conventional P25 digital repeater confined to a single site P25 is for encryption only.

We are looking to upgrade ours to a conventional system but have the ability to go digital.. We have a mix of radios that will do both. The sheriffs department wants to stay on their conventional digital with P25 encryption.

Quick backstory is a cow somehow got into our repeater house and the door shut behind it and the cow died destroyed the sheriff department repeater and damaged ours that cost 3k to fix. The insurance has agreed to replace the 2 systems.

We have been in contact and requested bids from local radio shops but some sell the same equipment and both places have different opinions on what kind of equipment that we are going to use.. The tower we will be using from our original system has to be moved due to landowner forcing us to take it down and now using a crown castle tower that's 3 air miles from our current location. However, its 300ft taller in elevation and just got our approval for a 315ft height on the tower w/ 180w EIRP due to the terrain.

So what I'm asking repeater wise what would be a great system to use that can keep us conventional with the ability to go digital in the future and keep the sherrifs department conventional p25 w/ digital encryption?

We've been told NXR-5700 w/ JPF cards. Motorola QTR, Kenwood Atlas repeaters. All the radio companies have a different view on the equipment and when asking different companies about other offers they all have something else to say or view why that isn't a good option.. We have our NEMA housing, coax, antennas and mouting hardware that is required from Crown castle so that cannot change.

Basically, what are our options to get the most power as possible with the best equipment we can for the budget of $24k?

Thanks
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Old 08-19-2017, 4:04 PM
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I have no input on equipment recommendations, but I do ask for pictures of the aftermath of the cow!!!
:-D
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Old 08-19-2017, 4:39 PM
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So, in a nutshell.... you want 1 pure p25 repeater with encryption (DES, ADP, AES, ??) and 1 repeater that has the ability to do p25 in the future? What frequency band? Do you need combining equip or duplexers? TT
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Old 08-19-2017, 8:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emtunderwood View Post
Quick backstory is a cow somehow got into our repeater house and the door shut behind it and the cow died destroyed the sheriff department repeater and damaged ours that cost 3k to fix. The insurance has agreed to replace the 2 systems.
Never knew that cows could get insurance.
Let me guess, it was moo tual of Omaha...
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Old 08-20-2017, 12:58 PM
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VHF Band. They are for two different agencies. The systems nowhere in the near future will ever be combined. We need the repeater, amp, duplexes for both systems. The sheriffs department uses the conventional system with digital encryption. We would like to have a analog conventional system with ability to go digital... One two-way company mentioned using a Kenwood NXR-5700 system with JPF P25 card for Sheriff's department and us using just a NXR-5700 on the same frame as the department as the frame can hold 5 repeaters. Which after talking to them makes no sense to me. Also, was told that we could use a TKR-750 analog system and use AES encryption on mobiles and portables. Another was using Motorola GTR repeaters one conventional with digital capability and a pure P25 digital for Sheriff's department but the price for that was 12k for ours and almost 40k for the sheriffs department.. We are being told so many things. We simply ask we want our conventional system that has the ability to got digital when the time comes and has encryption capabilities. And the sheriffs department is digital with encryption already and the two-way companies don't understand that they are two systems separate from each other at the same site. We technically don't need the encryption but would like to go digital in the future. So what are your suggestions?
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Old 08-20-2017, 1:14 PM
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Are there any wireline, home, or UP connectivity needed to the repeaters? How does the dispatcher access each system (via radio, Telco, up, microwave, etc)? TT
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Old 08-20-2017, 2:15 PM
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The nice thing about the NXR-5700 is that you can just buy what you need now, save money, and if/when you decide to upgrade to P25, you can flash the repeater to support it.

Either way, you're probably looking at a decent system. No dogs in that list.

I'm running a bunch of the NXR-900's. Precursor to the NXR-5x00 line. There's enough interfaces on the rear to do whatever you need to do in the future. They'll do IP linking, IP monitoring, etc. so you are good there.

You might want to take a close look at the individual vendors, since their support (or lack of it) will make a bigger impact on your experience. I originally moved away from Motorola due to the lack of reliable support from the "MRSS de-jour" that Motorola liked to force us to use. Much better support from Kenwood, and it saved me money.
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Old 08-20-2017, 9:42 PM
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RF Technology Eclispe 2 (or 3 I'd you can get it but not yet into full production ). MSRP on an Eclispe 2 with P25 is less than $14,000. EF Johnson was relabeling Simoco's P25 repeater for awhile...and they dropped in favor of the rumored Eclispe 3. Icom already relabels the Eclispe 2. There are also options for simulcast and single site trunking. The Eclispe 2 and 3 also directly interface with the Atlas controllers. Built in vocoder which can perform DAC and handle encryption keys as well...

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Old 08-21-2017, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emtunderwood View Post
Hello,

I have a question about 2 systems that we are going to replace...

Basically, what are our options to get the most power as possible with the best equipment we can for the budget of $24k?

Thanks
Replacing 2 complete repeaters with one being P25 and the other being P25 capable is going to be pretty hard with in your budget.

A TPL 1-10w in 60-100w PA is going to set you back over $1500. 2 of them is 1/8 of your budget with out power supplies or circulators
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Old 08-21-2017, 6:32 PM
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Ok, I don't know if I'm supposed to post this but here's examples of what has been offered and still within our budget. I'm not totally sold on nexedge.. Nobody else around us uses it. Some are digital some are trunked, most are analog some with or without encryption and P25.

IF WE STAYED ANALOG AND SHERIFF DEPT. ON P25

(1) Kenwood TKR-750 VHF Base & Repeater 136-174MHz
(1) KPG-46XM Programming Cable
(1) KPG-91DNK Programming Software
(1) Service Manual
(1) KSGPA22543 152-162MHz, 25W Input, 150W Output
(1) KSGPS20702 70A 13.8VDC 19” Wide Rack Mounted
Power Supply with Smart Charger
(1) KSGDX12556 6 Cavity VHF BpBr Duplexer
UNIT PRICE:

(1) Kenwood Atlas VHF P25 Repeater
Analog/P25 multmode
5 Watts Adjustable to 100 Watts
Power Supply
Duplexer
UNIT PRICE:


IF WE BOTH WENT WITH NEXEDGE REPATERS AND ADDED JPF P25 CARDS

(2) Kenwood NXR-5700 VHF Digital Base
Repeater 136-174MHz
(1) KPT-300LMC License Management Client
(1) L-5000 Account Registration Key
(1) KPG-D2NK Programming Software
(1) Service Manual
(1) KSGCB10206 Programming USB A/B Cable
(2) KSGPA22543 152-164MHz, 25W Input, 150W Output
(2) KSGPS20702 70A 13.8VDC 19” Wide Rack Mounted
Power Supply with Smart Charger
(2) KSGDX12556 6 Cavity VHF BpBr Duplexer
UNIT PRICE:
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Old 08-21-2017, 6:37 PM
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Also, I was told that we could use the TKR-750 and some how push AES over those.. But I've never heard of that before. Is that true and how do you do it?
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Old 08-22-2017, 3:19 PM
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So, as I said in your other post, let me humbly backtrack. I've always been under the impression that the NXR-5x00 line of repeaters could handle P25 as an option. I was wrong. The mobiles/portables will, but not the repeaters.

So that kind of hoses up my recommendation. If P25 is going to be a requirement, then you likely have two options:
Get them to increase your budget (by a lot).
Buy analog now and then approach the P25 thing as a completely separate project at a later date.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:35 PM
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Most DMR repeaters can do conventional and DMR has varying levels of encryption. Does the sheriff need P25 for anything other than encryption?

Make sure your techs observe the ERP limit, 100 watts out of the duplexer into low loss coax you could exceed your limit with a gain antenna. Most shops go for max power and never read the license.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:51 PM
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This is why we need the ability to upvote in the forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedway_navigator View Post
Never knew that cows could get insurance.
Let me guess, it was moo tual of Omaha...
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Old 08-25-2017, 8:23 PM
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The analog conventional system will actually provide better audio quality and range than ANY digital system but sadly everyone seems to be going digital

Sadly because most county PSAPS were conned into putting all their eggs in the P25 basket, it left them stuck with inferior sounding radios that have worse coverage than the conventional systems they replaced

The great thing about analog systems is that ANY radio made by ANY company will work on it and they are FAR cheaper than any digital radios

Without exception, a conventional analog repeater system when properly designed and Installed will easily outperform any digital system and do it for a fraction. of the price
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Old 08-26-2017, 8:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOTEX View Post
The analog conventional system will actually provide better audio quality and range than ANY digital system but sadly everyone seems to be going digital

Sadly because most county PSAPS were conned into putting all their eggs in the P25 basket, it left them stuck with inferior sounding radios that have worse coverage than the conventional systems they replaced

The great thing about analog systems is that ANY radio made by ANY company will work on it and they are FAR cheaper than any digital radios

Without exception, a conventional analog repeater system when properly designed and Installed will easily outperform any digital system and do it for a fraction. of the price
Performance varies actually. There are guys out there who have seen nothing but increased coverage post digital migration. In the long run a lot of it really depnds on how well the system was initially setup to begin with. Except for a handful of first generation P25 radios that I've tested so far, every digital radio I've physically bench tested has show a far more sensitive receiver (4 to 5 dB more) running in digital operation compared to anlaog.

Also, there are radios out there that are digital only...so the statement about all radios being able to run analog isn't exactly true but anything considered for a public saftey application should be analog capable.
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Old 08-26-2017, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCore25 View Post
Performance varies actually. There are guys out there who have seen nothing but increased coverage post digital migration. In the long run a lot of it really depnds on how well the system was initially setup to begin with.
Very true. However, on the flip side a lot of these upgrades include upgrading the infrastructure which may include added sites or even getting rid of the losses of the old analog system. 30 year old LMR400 feedline, crappy antenna's, decense on the old system, etc, all play a roll on how well a new digital system compares to the old.

A small town south of me replaced their single site analog system to a single site digital system (P25), after replacing 125' of OLD LMR400 with 7/8 hardline, better antenna, new duplexer and the proper filtering needed for that particular site, the digital performed great to what they had. Then again, switching to the analog side performed great to what they had as well.

Most of the time a new digital system is perceived to have gone from night to day, but usually it isn't the modulation that causes this drastic change.
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Old 08-26-2017, 1:32 PM
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Our testing in rural Texas showed a 40% - 60% coverage increase for VHF DMR. A guy in Marshall said his testing was closer to doubling their range.

Vocoder technology is better, early in the Trbo days we had users complaining they could not ID voices on the radio because there wasn't enough clarity.
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Old 08-26-2017, 6:24 PM
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Show me a digital repeater that out distances a analog repeater and I'll show you a repeater that wasn't tuned or installed right

I've proved it time and time again against the best
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Old 08-26-2017, 7:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOTEX View Post
Show me a digital repeater that out distances a analog repeater and I'll show you a repeater that wasn't tuned or installed right

I've proved it time and time again against the best
I've got a case in point...XPR8400 in analog then flipped to digital. Same repeater, has better coverage in digital operation (a 34% usable coverage increase to be exact).

To be fair though, no one has yet done an experiment comparing differnet modulation schemes to one another with a service monitor and how it affects the usable received signal quality. That could be done using the same radio and actually prove how anlaog and digital (which have the aid of forward error correction) schemes really differ.
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