Can you cite a case of harmful HT?

[scanmanmi]

"The LMCC noted that this presents a serious risk of harmful interference to Federal systems and FCC-compliant systems operated by Public Safety and Business/Industrial licensees. "

I can't hardly get down the street with 2 watts. I think I could transmit on almost any freq without disturbing anything, Has there ever been a real case of harmful interference documented?

 

[lmrtek]

The LMCC is spot on and the FCC has long needed to crack down.
......
EVERYBODY that owns these cheap non-compliant radios has police, fire, ems, and business frequencies programmed in and most are set to TRANSMIT there.
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This puts lives at risk if some wannabee winds up setting on his Baofeng mic and taking a public safety frequency out if service.
........
Most hams own multiple units and i have yet to meet a single ham that didn't have public safety frequencies entered.
.......
And as we all know, hams love to kerchunk repeaters so hearing these constant key ups on area repeaters has now become a big problem.
.......
It's bad enough that these radios generate massive spurs that cause interference to LICENSED systems.
.......
But any idiot with a pulse can buy one and start transmitting.
.......
None should have been allowed into the country since they don't conform to FCC standards.
.......
And they are also illegal for hams to use since they can transmit outside of ham frequencies.

 

[NC1]

"The LMCC noted that this presents a serious risk of harmful interference to Federal systems and FCC-compliant systems operated by Public Safety and Business/Industrial licensees. "

I can't hardly get down the street with 2 watts. I think I could transmit on almost any freq without disturbing anything, Has there ever been a real case of harmful interference documented?

I have not heard of a single case, and I am on a lot of Amateur Radio, GMRS, and other radio related web sites / discussion boards a few times a day.

I believe somebody got out the magnifying glass on a potential issue that only exists in theory.
My refrigerator puts out a carrier on 147.145MHz when the ice maker is engaged and itt goes for quite a ways down the block, no unmarked vans or helicopters in the area yet.

Find out who benefits and follow the money.

Note: they are perfectly legal for Hams to use. That topic has been discussed and put to rest over on QRZ.

 

[nd5y]

I can't hardly get down the street with 2 watts.

Then your radios or antennas or installation is junk.

I think I could transmit on almost any freq without disturbing anything, Has there ever been a real case of harmful interference documented?

I'm sure that's what these guys thought.
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2017/DOC-346740A1.html
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2016/DA-16-1083A1.html
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2017/DOC-347300A1.html

 

[NC1]

Are we talking spurious emissions on a harmonic, or purposefully transmitting such as willful interference?? I may have misunderstood the question. (that would not be unusual for me)

 

[mmckenna]

It's not just the radios that are the issue, it's the users.

If you read the entire LMCC letter, you will get to the part where they talk about educating the consumer regarding licensing, interference, etc.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

"The LMCC noted that this presents a serious risk of harmful interference to Federal systems and FCC-compliant systems operated by Public Safety and Business/Industrial licensees. "

I can't hardly get down the street with 2 watts. I think I could transmit on almost any freq without disturbing anything, Has there ever been a real case of harmful interference documented?

There is a private ambulance service in the Bronx that was getting jammed repeatedly because of idiots using default channels in Baofeng, the ambulance company went as far as putting out color notices like wanted dead or alive and picture of a Baofeng radio. They were asking adults to look out for your children with these radios. Average age of a child in the Bronx apparently 32 yo....

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[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I have not heard of a single case, and I am on a lot of Amateur Radio, GMRS, and other radio related web sites / discussion boards a few times a day.

I believe somebody got out the magnifying glass on a potential issue that only exists in theory.
My refrigerator puts out a carrier on 147.145MHz when the ice maker is engaged and itt goes for quite a ways down the block, no unmarked vans or helicopters in the area yet.

Find out who benefits and follow the money.

Note: they are perfectly legal for Hams to use. That topic has been discussed and put to rest over on QRZ.

If your refrigerator, that likely meets FCC part 15, radiates a block, imagine how much further a Baofeng with proper antenna radiates!

If the ARRL or the Pope complained to the FCC, some folks would see an "agenda".

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[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Then your radios or antennas or installation is junk.


I'm sure that's what these guys thought.
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2017/DOC-346740A1.html
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2016/DA-16-1083A1.html
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2017/DOC-347300A1.html

In reading those, it is apparent that the general public, SCADA engineers included, have no clue about the implications of transmitting on some random frequency. That those SCADA engineers went further to put in another Part 90 channel into the equipment, and that they feel it is a good application for MURS is plain stupidity. I hope they aren't using that SCADA for ski lift safety!

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[NC1]

There is a private ambulance service in the Bronx that was getting jammed repeatedly because of idiots using default channels in Baofeng, the ambulance company went as far as putting out color notices like wanted dead or alive and picture of a Baofeng radio. They were asking adults to look out for your children with these radios. Average age of a child in the Bronx apparently 32 yo....

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If the offender has not been caught, how do they know it's a Baofeng?

I have a Yaesu and a Kenwood that were modified, and came with "default" frequencies.

Until they have it in their hand, they do not know. What if it's an older county auctioned Motorola?

 

[Chronic]

The majority of all public safety is or is going to p25 or some other digital format , so a baofeng is not going to talk on there channels . transmit there yes , but not likely to have much of an effect .

 

[kayn1n32008]

The majority of all public safety is or is going to p25 or some other digital format , so a baofeng is not going to talk on there channels . transmit there yes , but not likely to have much of an effect .

It will have an effect. Just because the users do not hear it, does not mean an analogue transmission will not create interference, or cause interference that negatively effects the operation of the radio system.

If it is on a trunk repeater input, the system controller will remove it from active use, and set off an alarm. The result is one less talk path, until the issue is resolved.


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[KK6ZTE]

The majority of all public safety is or is going to p25 or some other digital format , so a baofeng is not going to talk on there channels . transmit there yes , but not likely to have much of an effect .

Not much effect? Have you ever heard of desense? I've seen an Icom H/T that an Amtrak conductor was using (sitting on) that prevented the locomotive from receiving legitimate traffic from the dispatcher. It doesn't matter that the remote base the dispatcher was using had 100W+ output and the handie talkie was pushing maybe 3 watts ERP... The locomotive radio locked onto the HT signal and couldn't hear anything else. Desensitizing the receiver can cause all kinds of issues. On a truly analog system, it'll prevent the user from hearing critical information, an officer safety BOL, and more. On a trunked system, it can cause the radio not to get a proceed tone and can prevent the officer or user from calling for help in an emergency.

I have not heard of a single case, and I am on a lot of Amateur Radio, GMRS, and other radio related web sites / discussion boards a few times a day.

Is this supposed to impress anyone?

Obviously, those kind of forums are not where you would hear about these issues. You would find relevant discussion on industry related websites and discussion groups. The amateur radio and GMRS forums are full of people trying to justify their use of illegal radios and telling each other how great their mag mount looks. I would also suggest maybe finding a better use of time.

The Baofengs should not come programmed. Problem (partially) solved.

 

[jaspence]

Maybe I'm missing something, but most of the cheap radios do not have 700 or 800 MHz capabilities and are not going to bother P25 used by most public service.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

If the offender has not been caught, how do they know it's a Baofeng?

I have a Yaesu and a Kenwood that were modified, and came with "default" frequencies.

Until they have it in their hand, they do not know. What if it's an older county auctioned Motorola?

Because it has been numerous cases and they have seen the radios.

This was a thread some six months ago. It is an ambulance company, that specifically serve ultra orthodox Jews in NYC. You can look it up yourself.

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[KK6ZTE]

jaspence, I think you are missing something. There are still numerous "legacy" systems using VHF-Hi and UHF out in the wild and will stay there for the next 20+ years. P25, like any mode, can be jammed or interfered with if a signal is on frequency (or close enough to desense it).

Regardless, even IF there was no adverse effect, would it make it OK?

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Maybe I'm missing something, but most of the cheap radios do not have 700 or 800 MHz capabilities and are not going to bother P25 used by most public service.

That is actually quite incorrect. Plenty of VHF and UHF PS activity out there. Also P25 is quite vulnerable to interference and radios can switch P25 to analog mode on the fly depending on programming,

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[Citywide173]

Maybe I'm missing something, but most of the cheap radios do not have 700 or 800 MHz capabilities and are not going to bother P25 used by most public service.

A frequency is a frequency regardless of emission mode. If a radio is transmitting analog, and it is close enough to a radio operating on P25, the P25 radio will be effectively jammed.

 

[jonwienke]

The range for a CCR like a UV-5R to jam a public safety 700/800MHz radio would be feet, maybe yards, given the frequency difference. If the public safety radio was UHF or VHF and they were both on the same frequency, the jamming range would obviously be greater.

 

[12dbsinad]

Go take a CCR (most of them) and put them on a spectrum analyzer. Then go take any part 90 radio from the big players and put them on the analyzer (can even be entry level unit).

What you'll see is a bunch of spurs (garbage that can affect other users not on your TX freq) from the CCR. This is bad in LMR. This is one of the many reasons for FCC certification on part 90, to keep it as clean as possible from transmitters.

Think of it a a cars catalytic converter. The CCR doesn't have one (or at least a very inefficient one).

EDIT: Also, don't confuse analog and digital, that's just a form of modulation and does not change the characteristics of RF. It can and does affect ALL users.