Licensing Question for School System Radios

[Dbl_naught_spy]

I am new here and also relatively new to radios. I've been in Electronics for over 30 years but never much radio work. I recently took an electronics technician position with the local school system. Among other things, I've been put in charge of our 28 schools 2 way handhelds. It's kind of a hodge podge of Kenwoods, Motorola, Vertex Standard, TERAs and some off brand stuff.

We have a FCC license with 25-ish VHF frequencies that have been kind of spread around along with 5 UHF frequencies and 6 VHF frequencies at 50W for repeaters (we have 5 in use at the moment - 4 high schools and 1 middle school). One of the first things that was dropped into my lap was another middle school (using VHF at the moment with horrible comms - Kenwood 5W radios) that wants a repeater. I've been studying what the guy before me was trying to do with this system and it looks like he was moving schools to UHF and away from VHF. My understanding is UHF is better for inside buildings and I've tested a few UHF radios and they seem to work much better. I'm thinking I need to go more that route and away from putting up a repeater for the VHF.

We also have a new school for special needs kids that was recently built and they are using a very small 2W VHF radio and they just flat don't work in this new building. They also want a repeater but again, I don't think that is the way to go. I've tried some UHF radios in there too and they work better but haven't hit on the right one yet. Think I need 5W on that one. I have also found a couple of other schools also already using our UHF frequencies too so I'm pretty sure this was the direction the other guy was heading. I'm guessing I'm soon going to have to modify the license to add some more UHF frequencies.

Add to that a request I got today that the one middle school that is already using a repeater for their VHF radios is asking for another repeater so that the school resource officer (local PD) can use their PD issued radio inside the school. I'm also guessing that if we did something like that for them we would have to add some 800 or 900 Mhz frequencies to OUR license for that.

Any advice or direction would be appreciated. Am I on the right track that we should be switching to UHF for most school comms? Should I just do the repeaters (knowing that more and more schools are going to eventually want them as there are other schools that have comms problems that haven't been formally brought up)? Am I going to run into license problems if it is decided that we do need to add a repeater at the middle school mentioned for the resource officers PD radio?

Much obliged for any help.

 

[garyf629]

UHF would be the way to go....But there are a couple of things you need to do first. First thing, do a complete inventory of all your equipment, including location, VHF/UHF, brand/model & s/n, and age (If known.) Second, find out what public safety is currently using, (VHF/UHF/800) try and stay with what they are using. In case of problems it make it a lot easier, and can save lives. Third, find a Consulting Engineer, (P.E.) one that is not associated with any dealer or manufacturer,. Their motivation would be to sell you service and equipment. As an independent they are able to recommend what is going to work best for your situation.

Keep in mind that a make over of your COMPLETE system would be a considerable amount of money. Any local dealer would love to help you, but keep in mind, they are trying to sell you something, and maybe more than you need. After all they are profit driven. Not to down play your skills, but if your not knowledgeable in RF Engineering, this could be a nightmare.

Gary Fields P.E. W1MOW

 

[KG7PBS]

From a Ham Radio Guy. I would go with UHF for the schools as UHF does work better. And if you have the money to start buying new radios find a brand that you feel would work best for your staff. And think about going Digital in the Radios Motorola and Kenwood have good Digital Radios for cheap. KG7PBS

 

[stmills]

I second the suggestion to get an independent consultant/engineer who can help you develop a system wide plan. The schools I work for use all uhf and have good coverage. We have multiple high schools, middle schools and a bunch of elementary schools. Each high school and middle school have 2 repeaters - 1 for admin/ student based staff and 1 for facilities. The elementary schools are switching to repeaters on a case by case basis. We also have a wide area Repeater with 2 ctcss tones for 2 district wide channels - emergency and non emergency. We have 4 simplex events channels in each radio for local off Repeater calls. Our Resource officers carry a uhf school radio and a P25 800 MHz law Enforcement radio. During incidents the SRO’s are able to relay info between the to Systems which works well. A neighboring district has some of there uhf channels hard patches into the local p25 public Safety System so Police can talk to the school on the police radio and the SROs at these schools still carry and use the school uhf instead of having to try and monitor 2 channels on the public Safety radio.
I would also second taking a good look at the digital options available- I know our system would be much simpler if we were on a digital system.

 

[mmckenna]

While you may be licensed for repeaters, they are usually tied to a specific location. If you want to turn up new repeaters, you'll need to update the license. That might trigger re-coordination.

As others have said, getting a vendor agnostic consultant involved would be a wise choice. You'll need to work closely with them to list out all the existing systems and equipment you currently have. Using that information, they can assist you in coming up with an overall plan for your district.
Instead of looking at each school individually, you should come up with a common plan where all radios have access to all repeaters and simplex channels. That way you can have one common programming file and radios can be used at other locations without having to reprogram them.

You'll also need to look at all the individual radios and make sure they are:
1. Narrow band capable (required as of January 01, 2013)
2. All programmed to operate in narrow band mode.
3. All radios have valid Part 90 FCC type acceptance (check the FCC ID on the radio and look it up here: https://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/fccid)
4. Make sure all radios are programmed with frequencies you are licensed for, and not FRS channels, or anything not properly licensed.

The consultant will help you come up with a plan. Getting all your systems on UHF would be a good idea, that way you have a common platform across the district. Consider giving back the unused VHF licenses, since those are often in demand by other users. No need to tie up frequencies that you don't plan on using.
Consider your bus fleet and if they want to add mobiles as well as GPS integration for "automatic vehicle location" functionality (allow tracking buses in real time on a map).

As for the Police resource officer…
They should have access to your UHF system. That might mean you'll need to provide a UHF radio for them to use.
As for their agencies radios, that will need to be handled by whoever runs their radio system. Since they are the license holder for the police system, they are the only ones that can add a repeater, in-building coverage system, etc.

This can be a big project, but with proper planning and the leadership of a good consultant, it should be easily manageable and result in a good communications system for the district.

 

[speedway_navigator]

I was talking to a school district superintendent today about his system. They have full keypads on their Motorola radios so I asked him what he used it for. They never do, just an added cost for the taxpayers for a basic radio system.

Has anyone done an analog versus DMR test on UHF simplex in a building to see coverage distances?

ps to the OP - Jethro would be honored by your forum name

 

[krokus]

If your school system is growing, consider updating/installing capabilities to cover the whole system. A trunking system could be useful, so you can add users/options, without having to get new licenses. As others have suggested, hire an impartial consultant.

As for the resource officer, does his agency use a trunking system? If so, installing bi-directional amplifiers in the larger buildings could provide the wanted radio access. Once again, the consultant can explore options for you. (Such as can one radio handle the officer talking to his agency and the school's administration.)

Do not fall into the "Motorola knows best" trap. While they make quality equipment, there are comparable radios available from other companies.

Sent using Tapatalk

 

[KG7PBS]

Yes DMR Is better then Analog on UHF by far. You will have way better indoor Range on simplex. We use them in are warehouse that’s well over a mile long and 2 football field wide.

 

[TampaTyron]

I design, install, and troubleshoot large DMR systems for a living. That being said, I would be surprised if the School District would spring for a consultant. If they would, I would recommend that route. I would also recommend UHF repeater for every building where simplex coverage is questionable (liability$$$$). If you deploy a new UHF repeater and radios, the VHF ones can be collected and sent to other schools. Since my experience is with Mototrbo, I would recommend that. However, buy the local service provider's skill not necessarily the brand. Moto, Kenwood, etc all make decent gear. Stay away from wide area unless that is absolutely necessary. If there is a wide area need or a need to talk to multiple schools at the same time, then the system costs increase by 10×. For the School Resource Officer, I would recommend using the agency mobile radio connected to a Pyramid Vehicular Repeater. Then, the Officer carries a portable that connects to the Pyramid (centrally mounting the mobile and Pyramid should give decent portable coverage for the Officer). Try to keep the Pyramid in a different RF band than the Agency mobile. TT

 

[Dbl_naught_spy]

Sorry it's taken so long to get back to this. I appreciate all of the replies and the really great advice. I will try to address what everybody has said. Some of it I have already covered the bases on, some I haven't.

First off, Local PD and FD are using 800MHz here. It is a trunking system. We already have a few schools using UHF and they like it. I could start off changing the VHF schools and get into the 800MHz depending on the prices of the radios I suppose. Is 800MHz even better for indoor comms?

One of the folks I have talked to (yep, he's a salesman) is trying to sell me on the FleetTalk but I don't think the school system here is going to go for a monthly fee service. He's been talking to our bus garage about that too. I don't think they are going to go that route either. I have contacted another Frequency Coordinating Service (Enterprise Wireless Alliance if names are allowed, if not, Mods feel free to delete that). They have been helpful and I don't think they are in sales. And no, I'm not a RF Engineer by any means. But this is a part of this job that I will have to learn as it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I have a strong electronics and computer background and it's not completely foreign to me. I should be able to make the transition. I just wish it hadn't started out so full bore on so many schools needing upgraded and/or repeaters needing to be installed.

About the repeaters, we do have 5 up and running. 1 frequency is left open for another one. And yes, they are all located at a school with an operating distance of 32km fixed from that address. They won't be of any use to any of the other schools though as none of the schools using VHF are close enough for their radios to reach the repeaters. The repeaters are all VHF also. I don't think the ones we have are dual band.

Our resource officers all do carry one of our radios for the school or schools that they are assigned to. Our elementary officers roam 3-4 schools. Like I said, their radios are 800MHz. I think they do use some kind of UHF repeaters though because I have a guy that works here that has a dual band, VHF/UHF handheld and he can hear them in the UHF band some how (420-500MHz). I don't think though that the school system or even the local PD is going to allow me to install the repeater that the middle school has requested. We don't have any 800MHz frequencies on our license at present and even if we did, it wouldn't be the ones that the PD uses. Pretty sure I can't just throw up a repeater sending out the local PD frequencies.

The radios I am looking at have been the Motorola EVX-S24 and the EVX-261. The EVX-S24 has the LCD display but it's not needed. Those are UHF (I think maybe even dual band) and are digital. And I didn't just choose them by name. Most of what we have now are Kenwoods. TX-2160, TX-2360 and a couple of schools already in UHF are using the TX-3360 I think it is. They work good for what they are (VHF analog in buildings). The price on the Motorolas just seemed to be a little better. All of the radios we have right now are Narrow Band compliant and are programmed with frequencies we are licensed for. I have started trying to get a handle on exactly what everybody has and how many. That is taking a little time. I have also talked to all the principals (at least mentioned it to them) that they need to contact me before ordering any new radios. I'm getting along with everybody pretty well and 3 have called me already before replacing damaged units. I even fixed a few already. That's my wheelhouse. My plan is to take the radios from schools we upgrade and keep the high schools and one middle school running on their VHF repeater a while longer giving me time and money to swap out the schools without.

Hopefully I covered everything that was mentioned. Any other ideas/advice are welcome. Trying to take it all in.

And speedway_navigator, thanks for noticing. My wife and I are big fans of the oldies. Andy Griffith, Beverly Hillbillies, I Love Lucy, etc. I've run that name for a long time and you'd be surprised how many people say something like "Hello, Mr. Bond". LOL.

 

[mmckenna]

Sorry it's taken so long to get back to this. I appreciate all of the replies and the really great advice. I will try to address what everybody has said. Some of it I have already covered the bases on, some I haven't.

First off, Local PD and FD are using 800MHz here. It is a trunking system. We already have a few schools using UHF and they like it. I could start off changing the VHF schools and get into the 800MHz depending on the prices of the radios I suppose. Is 800MHz even better for indoor comms?

800MHz may have a slight advantage indoors.
However, I would strongly recommend NOT switching from UHF to 800MHz. The selection for 800MHz radios is less than UHF. 800MHz radios tend to cost more than their UHF or even VHF counterparts.
You'd have to coordinate and license the new frequencies, which is going to cost more money.
You won't be able to access the PD trunked system unless you buy the correct radios (correct trunking protocol) as well as getting the OK from the department. There's a lot of issues with programming and accessing their system that you really don't need to deal with.

Stick with UHF. If you already have the licenses, you've got the hard work done. Save your money.

For the resource officer, have him work with his department to address the coverage issues. Don't try to solve their coverage issues. You won't be able to afford it.

One of the folks I have talked to (yep, he's a salesman) is trying to sell me on the FleetTalk but I don't think the school system here is going to go for a monthly fee service. He's been talking to our bus garage about that too. I don't think they are going to go that route either. I have contacted another Frequency Coordinating Service (Enterprise Wireless Alliance if names are allowed, if not, Mods feel free to delete that). They have been helpful and I don't think they are in sales. And no, I'm not a RF Engineer by any means. But this is a part of this job that I will have to learn as it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I have a strong electronics and computer background and it's not completely foreign to me. I should be able to make the transition. I just wish it hadn't started out so full bore on so many schools needing upgraded and/or repeaters needing to be installed.

Unless you really need wide area coverage, stick with what you have. Buying into a "pay per use" system is going to get expensive, and it's unlikely you really need that level of service. If you do, consider adding a single UHF repeater at a high location/tower to cover a wider area. That will be cheaper in the long run.

I can see the argument for putting your bus fleet on a system like that, but again, it's expensive and you may not need it.

Be very wary of sales guys. They will figure out what your budget is and find you a solution that cost that much and a bit more. You'll like have to replace all the radios that you'd want to put on that system, and again, money you probably don't need to be spending.

Our resource officers all do carry one of our radios for the school or schools that they are assigned to. Our elementary officers roam 3-4 schools. Like I said, their radios are 800MHz. I think they do use some kind of UHF repeaters though because I have a guy that works here that has a dual band, VHF/UHF handheld and he can hear them in the UHF band some how (420-500MHz). I don't think though that the school system or even the local PD is going to allow me to install the repeater that the middle school has requested. We don't have any 800MHz frequencies on our license at present and even if we did, it wouldn't be the ones that the PD uses. Pretty sure I can't just throw up a repeater sending out the local PD frequencies.

Correct. Adding a bi-directional amplifier system would need to be done by the licensee. If PD wants better coverage, they need to pay for it.

The radios I am looking at have been the Motorola EVX-S24 and the EVX-261. The EVX-S24 has the LCD display but it's not needed. Those are UHF (I think maybe even dual band)

No, those are all single band.

and are digital.

I'd recommend not buying into digital. At least not yet. There are several digital protocols used in professional radio, and they are not all compatible. If you start buying digital radios, but end up choosing a different protocol for your repeaters, you'll end up having to replace all the radios.
Stick with analog if at all possible. It'll save you a lot of money. There really isn't much a digital radio can do that an analog radio can't.

If you do decide to migrate to digital, you'll really need to look at the entire radio system as a whole and make your decisions based on that.

And I didn't just choose them by name. Most of what we have now are Kenwoods. TX-2160, TX-2360 and a couple of schools already in UHF are using the TX-3360 I think it is. They work good for what they are (VHF analog in buildings). The price on the Motorolas just seemed to be a little better. All of the radios we have right now are Narrow Band compliant and are programmed with frequencies we are licensed for.

Shop around. Digital is going to cost you more. As I said above, stick with analog as long as you can.
I'm running 400+ Kenwood radios at work since 2011, and have been very happy with them. As part of the state, we get contract pricing, which you probably can, too. That can save you a considerable amount off list price, especially if buying in quantity.

Also, when looking at radio prices, make sure you look at the total cost of ownership. That means replacement/spare batteries. Audio accessories, cases, PROGRAMMING SOFTWARE AND CABLES! The Motorolas might be cheaper, but when you start figuring in all the stuff you'll need, it can add up quickly.

I have started trying to get a handle on exactly what everybody has and how many. That is taking a little time. I have also talked to all the principals (at least mentioned it to them) that they need to contact me before ordering any new radios. I'm getting along with everybody pretty well and 3 have called me already before replacing damaged units. I even fixed a few already. That's my wheelhouse. My plan is to take the radios from schools we upgrade and keep the high schools and one middle school running on their VHF repeater a while longer giving me time and money to swap out the schools without.

That sounds like a really good plan. Getting a handle on what the district has is a big job, but once you do, life will get easier. Making contacts with each school is a good start.

Not sure where you are located, but make sure you check into state contracts for your radio system purchases. I purchase under the NASPO/WSCA contracts and get a flat 30% off list prices. Makes a big difference when you are buying a lot of gear. Check with your purchasing people and see what they can do for you.

 

[GrumpyGuard]

ps to the OP - Jethro would be honored by your forum name

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Sorry it's taken so long to get back to this. I appreciate all of the replies and the really great advice. I will try to address what everybody has said. Some of it I have already covered the bases on, some I haven't.

First off, Local PD and FD are using 800MHz here. It is a trunking system. We already have a few schools using UHF and they like it. I could start off changing the VHF schools and get into the 800MHz depending on the prices of the radios I suppose. Is 800MHz even better for indoor comms?

One of the folks I have talked to (yep, he's a salesman) is trying to sell me on the FleetTalk but I don't think the school system here is going to go for a monthly fee service. He's been talking to our bus garage about that too. I don't think they are going to go that route either. I have contacted another Frequency Coordinating Service (Enterprise Wireless Alliance if names are allowed, if not, Mods feel free to delete that). They have been helpful and I don't think they are in sales. And no, I'm not a RF Engineer by any means. But this is a part of this job that I will have to learn as it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I have a strong electronics and computer background and it's not completely foreign to me. I should be able to make the transition. I just wish it hadn't started out so full bore on so many schools needing upgraded and/or repeaters needing to be installed.

About the repeaters, we do have 5 up and running. 1 frequency is left open for another one. And yes, they are all located at a school with an operating distance of 32km fixed from that address. They won't be of any use to any of the other schools though as none of the schools using VHF are close enough for their radios to reach the repeaters. The repeaters are all VHF also. I don't think the ones we have are dual band.

Our resource officers all do carry one of our radios for the school or schools that they are assigned to. Our elementary officers roam 3-4 schools. Like I said, their radios are 800MHz. I think they do use some kind of UHF repeaters though because I have a guy that works here that has a dual band, VHF/UHF handheld and he can hear them in the UHF band some how (420-500MHz). I don't think though that the school system or even the local PD is going to allow me to install the repeater that the middle school has requested. We don't have any 800MHz frequencies on our license at present and even if we did, it wouldn't be the ones that the PD uses. Pretty sure I can't just throw up a repeater sending out the local PD frequencies.

The radios I am looking at have been the Motorola EVX-S24 and the EVX-261. The EVX-S24 has the LCD display but it's not needed. Those are UHF (I think maybe even dual band) and are digital. And I didn't just choose them by name. Most of what we have now are Kenwoods. TX-2160, TX-2360 and a couple of schools already in UHF are using the TX-3360 I think it is. They work good for what they are (VHF analog in buildings). The price on the Motorolas just seemed to be a little better. All of the radios we have right now are Narrow Band compliant and are programmed with frequencies we are licensed for. I have started trying to get a handle on exactly what everybody has and how many. That is taking a little time. I have also talked to all the principals (at least mentioned it to them) that they need to contact me before ordering any new radios. I'm getting along with everybody pretty well and 3 have called me already before replacing damaged units. I even fixed a few already. That's my wheelhouse. My plan is to take the radios from schools we upgrade and keep the high schools and one middle school running on their VHF repeater a while longer giving me time and money to swap out the schools without.

Hopefully I covered everything that was mentioned. Any other ideas/advice are welcome. Trying to take it all in.

And speedway_navigator, thanks for noticing. My wife and I are big fans of the oldies. Andy Griffith, Beverly Hillbillies, I Love Lucy, etc. I've run that name for a long time and you'd be surprised how many people say something like "Hello, Mr. Bond". LOL.

1) UHF is better than VHF indoors. The noise floor is better at UHF and the UHF 1/4 wave portable antennas work much better.

2) VHF is a bear to license a repeater. You cannot be certain that a frequency licensed at one school can be used at another. Very difficult band to work with.

3) 800 MHz is another difficult band to license. There are loading requirements. If you were to install a county wide 800 MHz channel, you would find you will need bi-directional amplifiers (AKA BDA or "booster') in each building. Your school resource officers might already need these if they are on 800 MHz. They can, by the way, get dual band 800/UHF radios and talk to the school directly. 800 MHz subscriber equipment is pricey.

4) Analog vs Digital. There are several standards, P25, DMR and NXDN. What digital buys you is improved coverage over analog now that everything has been forced to narrow band. The other thing it buys you is site networking and subscriber automatic roaming. These are done more easily with digital technology.

5) As far as analog vs digital, In my opinion, ETSI DMR is where you should look into the future. Avoid any APCO 25 (P25) discussions with the big vendor$. With DMR you can put one UHF DMR repeater in each of the smaller schools and have two time slots to provide simultaneous security and administration channels (etc), for example. For larger schools two or more repeaters can be linked via IP site connect (IPSC) and the portables can roam. You can actually connect to the WAN and talk district wide. You can also operate simplex on DMR or FM. The radios usually do all this.

6) Regarding Fleet Talk and any wide area commercial or public safety system, your problems are mostly happening inside buildings. The wide area systems fall short of that. They might do fine for school buses, receiving alarms and GPS etc, but inside buildings will remain a problem.

You probably need a RADIO Consultant to look at the current system, its dependencies, the available technology and help answer all the questions that will come up.

I loved the Beverly Hillbillies. They just don't do comedy like that anymore.

 

[alcahuete]

I second the digital, if nothing else, just for the sake of having the 2 time slots. Schools are busy places on the radio, especially during events and such, and having 2 distinct time slots is a HUGE help.

 

[speedway_navigator]

Soaking the portable antennas in rum-a-tiz medicine will definitely reduce range.
PM me if you want a quote on DMR radios.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

1) UHF is better than VHF indoors. The noise floor is better at UHF and the UHF 1/4 wave portable antennas work much better.

2) VHF is a bear to license a repeater. You cannot be certain that a frequency licensed at one school can be used at another. Very difficult band to work with.

3) 800 MHz is another difficult band to license. There are loading requirements. If you were to install a county wide 800 MHz channel, you would find you will need bi-directional amplifiers (AKA BDA or "booster') in each building. Your school resource officers might already need these if they are on 800 MHz. They can, by the way, get dual band 800/UHF radios and talk to the school directly. 800 MHz subscriber equipment is pricey.

4) Analog vs Digital. There are several standards, P25, DMR and NXDN. What digital buys you is improved coverage over analog now that everything has been forced to narrow band. The other thing it buys you is site networking and subscriber automatic roaming. These are done more easily with digital technology.

5) As far as analog vs digital, In my opinion, ETSI DMR is where you should look into the future. Avoid any APCO 25 (P25) discussions with the big vendor$. With DMR you can put one UHF DMR repeater in each of the smaller schools and have two time slots to provide simultaneous security and administration channels (etc), for example. For larger schools two or more repeaters can be linked via IP site connect (IPSC) and the portables can roam. You can actually connect to the WAN and talk district wide. You can also operate simplex on DMR or FM. The radios usually do all this.

6) Regarding Fleet Talk and any wide area commercial or public safety system, your problems are mostly happening inside buildings. The wide area systems fall short of that. They might do fine for school buses, receiving alarms and GPS etc, but inside buildings will remain a problem.

You probably need a RADIO Consultant to look at the current system, its dependencies, the available technology and help answer all the questions that will come up.

I loved the Beverly Hillbillies. They just don't do comedy like that anymore.

A radio consultant is a great suggestion. While 800 MHz can be difficult to license in many areas, dollar for dollar, subscriber costs are within $100 of a comparable UHF or VHF radio. The problem is, 800 MHz subscribers tend to be higher tier radios. For example, if you want 800 MHz in a MotoTRBO solution, you are forced into the XPR7x80e and SL7580e subscribers even if you don't need some of the other options offered only in those lines. Most schools tend to like the SL35000 and XPR3000 line of radios since they do do basic Capacity Plus and Linked Capacity Plus (but have to be optioned as such) but they are not available in 800 MHz yet half the price of the 7000 series of portables.

One of my biggest irks about DMR is the lack of a pseudo-trunking standard. 2 for 1 TDMA is great in theory but in application you see issues from retailers double/triple stacking talk groups on a timeslot that leads to nothing but customer frustration. Often times, a simple single channel pseudo-trunked repeater can alleviate many of these issues. One of my other irks has to do with constant reprogramming for trunked systems just to keep the sites and repeater resources up-to-date on constantly expanding systems. Planning ahead some helps but doesn't alleviate this pain (which is why I prefer P25 in that application but for an ISD system the cost simply is not justified). Not overly fond of the price-point of LCP either...compared to non-Motorola DMR trunking solutions but that's another story.

DMR can be done right, you just need someone who's familiar with it's quirks and limitations...i.e. a consultant.

 

[lmrtek]

There's a sweet spot for best in building communications and the 450
to 470 area is the best for bith penetration and distance.
By the time you get to 800Mhz, in building performance
and distance coverage declines.
........
And the 800Mhz cop radios are proof of that fact since they can't operate in the buildings without very expensive BDA systems in every building.
.........
And for bus communications, a 460 repeater system will provide the longest range, lowest noise, and best penetration.
........
If you decide to go 100% 800Mhz for everything, be prepared for multiple repeater sites to get the same coverage as lower UHF frequencies.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

One thing we did in the past with a newer district. They had recently installed public safety BDA's for NFPA in all district buildings. Local first repsonders were utilizing a 800 MHz P25 system. We managed to get them on a SMR's 800 MHz Capacity Plus system and allowed the existing BDA infrastructure to be utilized. They had the benefits of the wide area coverage for buses but also in building coverage for portables.

 

[Dbl_naught_spy]

This has definitely been eye opening for a newbie. I appreciate everyone's input.

I talked to a guy I know in the county's radio maintenance dept. (a guy I actually interviewed with for an electronics job a few years ago) and he has told me a repeater is out of the option. It wouldn't be allowed. He said what a few others here said, a bi-directional amp would be the best bet. That's something the higher ups that deal with the budget will have to decide. He also says it's not an option to put our frequencies on their radios. Not sure if that's because of rules or that the radios just won't do it. I imagine since they are 800MHz and trunked and ours are VHF and not trunked would have something to do with that. Bear in mind, the radios are new to me so I've still got a lot to learn so that may seem stupid to some. I know that a guy at our service center has a dual band that he claims can get fire, medic and police on it (VHF/UHF) so there may be a UHF repeater somewhere that the county uses but not sure again how that would work.

As for the new school for the special needs kids, I got in a 5W Motorola EVX-261 and programmed a pair today to try. Worked great except for when I got to the horse arena. About 400 yards from the front offices to that arena at the far end of the building. When I go into the tack room and the office of the arena, I have no comms with the front office. Close but no cigar. That was digital mode though. I may try analog and see if that is any better. May end up with a repeater there instead. The EVX-S24's I ordered to try first worked great at the middle school that is in need of something better. I will try these EVX-261's there too to see if that works still and just go that route (5W over 3W) for the price difference.

Again, thanks for the ideas and the patience dealing with what are probably not so smart questions from me.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

This has definitely been eye opening for a newbie. I appreciate everyone's input.

I talked to a guy I know in the county's radio maintenance dept. (a guy I actually interviewed with for an electronics job a few years ago) and he has told me a repeater is out of the option. It wouldn't be allowed. He said what a few others here said, a bi-directional amp would be the best bet. That's something the higher ups that deal with the budget will have to decide. He also says it's not an option to put our frequencies on their radios. Not sure if that's because of rules or that the radios just won't do it. I imagine since they are 800MHz and trunked and ours are VHF and not trunked would have something to do with that. Bear in mind, the radios are new to me so I've still got a lot to learn so that may seem stupid to some. I know that a guy at our service center has a dual band that he claims can get fire, medic and police on it (VHF/UHF) so there may be a UHF repeater somewhere that the county uses but not sure again how that would work.

As for the new school for the special needs kids, I got in a 5W Motorola EVX-261 and programmed a pair today to try. Worked great except for when I got to the horse arena. About 400 yards from the front offices to that arena at the far end of the building. When I go into the tack room and the office of the arena, I have no comms with the front office. Close but no cigar. That was digital mode though. I may try analog and see if that is any better. May end up with a repeater there instead. The EVX-S24's I ordered to try first worked great at the middle school that is in need of something better. I will try these EVX-261's there too to see if that works still and just go that route (5W over 3W) for the price difference.

Again, thanks for the ideas and the patience dealing with what are probably not so smart questions from me.

Just for context, I assume your tech meant that at 800 MHz you cannot license your own repeaters and BDA's are best solution for resource officers to use their own systems. But for your own internal systems, you can license and install UHF 450-470 MHz repeaters.

The EVX-S24 may be a better suited radio if you decide to go with MotoTrbo IPSC option as they do have an automatic site search mode. This would allow you to roam inside larger buildings with two or more repeaters . I assume that since Motorola owns Vertex that compatibility with MotoTrbo repeaters and IPSC is assured.