Any talk of???

[w2csx]

Just wondering if there is any news that any of the local Police Depts are switching over to P25 digital in the southern part of Worcester county. Thanks.....

[bobert5064]

Nope, not that I've ever heard of.

[zappbravo]

The state has no funding to switch any department's radio systems. The department I work for still using an 18 year old system.

[w2csx]

I don't think a lot of towns have the money to switch radios either, so what happens when 2013 comes along?

[jim202]

Originally Posted by w2csx

I don't think a lot of towns have the money to switch radios either, so what happens when 2013 comes along?

They should have been planning for it some 10 years back when the FCC order first came out. Those
departments that have sat on their rear since then deserve what ever happens. This will probably come
down to a number of them catching a citation for illegal operation.

Poor advice from both the radio shop and those in the know within the departments will have to shoulder
the results. The tax payers will revolt if they get asked to cough up large amounts of cash for the poor
planning. If I was the mayor or on the counsel that controls the government operation for these poor
planning departments, I would start by firing a bunch of their lazy buts for poor performance and failure
to do their jobs.

[ecps92]

If they use Grant $$ to upgrade as part of the Narrowband Requirements, they all will have to be P25 Compatible, doesn't mean they will use it

Lots of $$ are being used to convert agencies over.

Originally Posted by w2csx

Just wondering if there is any news that any of the local Police Depts are switching over to P25 digital in the southern part of Worcester county. Thanks.....

[zappbravo]

A department will not be fined by the FCC for old equipment. Out in Western MA there is still an AM wideband channel that fire departments still use in the smaller towns. The FCC doesn't allow AM frequencies anymore, but that's not stopping these departments from not using them. Unless this state gets out of debt, you will not see any system upgrading anytime soon. My department has NO plans in upgrading in the next couple years. Hell, most departments in MA still use signal codes, which is against FCC regulation after 9/11. Point is, don't get your hopes up.

[ecps92]

Can you Cite where the FCC doesn't allow AM??

There are still licenses using 8K00A3E , just look at all the Valid NH Licenses on 31.900 [Yes AM] for the NH Fire Towers.

What Frequency in Mass is using AM???

Also, PLEASE get your FACTS straight. The FCC does not prohibit the use of Codes. The recommendation is from DHS for Clear Language for Interop Purposes and has made statements that for Grant $$ agencies need to comply [for INTEROP]

Originally Posted by zappbravo

A department will not be fined by the FCC for old equipment. Out in Western MA there is still an AM wideband channel that fire departments still use in the smaller towns. The FCC doesn't allow AM frequencies anymore, but that's not stopping these departments from not using them. Unless this state gets out of debt, you will not see any system upgrading anytime soon. My department has NO plans in upgrading in the next couple years. Hell, most departments in MA still use signal codes, which is against FCC regulation after 9/11. Point is, don't get your hopes up.

[zappbravo]

Originally Posted by ecps92

Can you Cite where the FCC doesn't allow AM??

There are still licenses using 8K00A3E , just look at all the Valid NH Licenses on 31.900 [Yes AM] for the NH Fire Towers.

What Frequency in Mass is using AM???

Also, PLEASE get your FACTS straight. The FCC does not prohibit the use of Codes. The recommendation is from DHS for Clear Language for Interop Purposes and has made statements that for Grant $$ agencies need to comply [for INTEROP]

Well there's no need to get upset. Through my department training as a dispatcher, APCO training a couple years ago, we were taught that the FCC Prohibits signal codes. So maybe it was the wrong use of words for them and myself. As for licenses, I don't know much about them, I'm just giving you my prospective from an actual police department in this state struggling for money.

[paul612]

Originally Posted by zappbravo

Well there's no need to get upset. Through my department training as a dispatcher, APCO training a couple years ago, we were taught that the FCC Prohibits signal codes. So maybe it was the wrong use of words for them and myself. As for licenses, I don't know much about them, I'm just giving you my prospective from an actual police department in this state struggling for money.

I think you have your mix talked up! What do you mean FCC and signal codes? I don't think it's mandated yet, but I think its Incident Command System that says you should stop using 10 codes and use plain english.

[garys]

Originally Posted by zappbravo

A department will not be fined by the FCC for old equipment. Out in Western MA there is still an AM wideband channel that fire departments still use in the smaller towns. The FCC doesn't allow AM frequencies anymore, but that's not stopping these departments from not using them. Unless this state gets out of debt, you will not see any system upgrading anytime soon. My department has NO plans in upgrading in the next couple years. Hell, most departments in MA still use signal codes, which is against FCC regulation after 9/11. Point is, don't get your hopes up.

Folks, it's rare to have so much misinformation in one post. The FCC doesn't allow AM anymore? Really? Hmmm, I wonder all those illegal aircraft band radios are doing. Maybe you have AM mixed up with low band.

There is some, actually more than some, federal grant money around under various programs to upgrade radio systems for interoperability. It's not state money, nor should it be. Funding local radio systems is not the states, not frankly the federal government's responsibility.

The FCC has no regulations of any type regarding codes. As Paul612 points out there was some sort of statement by, I think FEMA, discouraging the use of codes for departments engaging in interoperable systems. And they even restated that after the outcry from the systems that still cling to their outdated code systems.

Oh, and it's entirely possible, some think even likely, that the FCC will not grant extensions beyond the 2013 date and that some public safety systems risk being shut down. Personally I don't think it will happen as there will be a lot of pressure from elected officials on the FCC if that appears likely, but that's the company line so far.

[ecps92]

Not upset, just not wanting folks to pass along BAD info, to much get's passed along as gospel too many time.

Also, back to the question, WHO and On What Freq is using AM in Massachusetts.

Originally Posted by zappbravo

Well there's no need to get upset. Through my department training as a dispatcher, APCO training a couple years ago, we were taught that the FCC Prohibits signal codes. So maybe it was the wrong use of words for them and myself. As for licenses, I don't know much about them, I'm just giving you my prospective from an actual police department in this state struggling for money.

[ecps92]

Not by the FCC Paul, it's a DHS recommendation and now requirement if you want Grant $$

It's one of those that everyone get's confussed about like P25 being mandated, when it's only "P25 Compatible"

Originally Posted by paul612

I think you have your mix talked up! What do you mean FCC and signal codes? I don't think it's mandated yet, but I think its Incident Command System that says you should stop using 10 codes and use plain english.

[w2csx]

BIll, am not sure where I read it on here. All I know it's FD in Berkshire County.

[bobert5064]

The narrowbanding mandate is not the same thing as P25. P25 is a digital radio system. Narrowband frequencies can still be analog, they just use less bandwidth than wideband. Most radios that have been on the market for the past 10-15 years were already narrowband compliant, but agencies were licensed for wideband, and that's what they used. Some agencies with ancient equipment will need to upgrade, but for most departments it's just a matter of reprogramming the radios.

NarrowbandingLaw

[brscomm]

Looking over the NH 31.90 MHz licenses, I see a number of them running 20K0F3E only. Has anyone listened recently t verify the AM usage? I know there was a lot of AM in NH back in the 70's but with the lack of new AM equipment out there, it would seem likely they migrated to FM and never changed the licenses.

[Maine45]

Originally Posted by brscomm

Looking over the NH 31.90 MHz licenses, I see a number of them running 20K0F3E only. Has anyone listened recently t verify the AM usage? ...

The 31.90 AM system was used as a sort of informal channel by volunteers in several fire lookout towers in NH and southern Maine until a few years ago. I stopped monitoring it awhile back due to no traffic. Pretty sure it is no longer used, perhaps due to lack of decent equipment and it not being reliable. It was intersting in a kind of retro-radio way, but that's about it.

As Gary and Bill stated, the original NIMS (FEMA National Incident Mangement System or "Nothing Is Making Sense") "requirements" stated plain language only; no "codes". Most LE agencies ignored this and FEMA subsequently changed it to plain lanquage for interoperability only. NIMS compliance is "required" for most federal grants at this point, however while an agency may be audited after receiving a grant, there is no real enforcement of this provision nor any means to do so. This is not a good forum to get into all the wonderful things about NIMS (such as the 1000's of hours public safety personnel have had to undergo exciting training on it), but suffice it to say certain provisions are "loosely" followed.

Other than surplus military radios, who makes low band AM equipment anymore?

**** in Southern Maine

[garys]

Originally Posted by Maine45

As Gary and Bill stated, the original NIMS (FEMA National Incident Mangement System or "Nothing Is Making Sense") "requirements" stated plain language only; no "codes". Most LE agencies ignored this and FEMA subsequently changed it to plain lanquage for interoperability only. NIMS compliance is "required" for most federal grants at this point, however while an agency may be audited after receiving a grant, there is no real enforcement of this provision nor any means to do so. This is not a good forum to get into all the wonderful things about NIMS (such as the 1000's of hours public safety personnel have had to undergo exciting training on it), but suffice it to say certain provisions are "loosely" followed.

I thought it was me! Seriously, as Maine45 points out, and at the risk of going way off topic, the NIMS training is painfully pointless. I dare say that if they made the Gitmo detainees sit through it, the ACLU would sue the government. I have a list of "new" courses on my desk that I have to tackle in the near future, including about my fourth class on ESF #8. Not that there is new material, but I have to take the same class all over again. As I do every time someone reshuffles the desk down there in wolkenkuckucksheim. But I digress.

[StoliRaz]

Hi all, just thought Id chime in. If agencies must be P-25 enabled wouldn't it make sense justto switch to P25, or would it still cost too much? I hope so, I hate the idea of P25, means none of my scanners would work for half of what I like to listen to and id have to buy new ones, as long as it isn't encrypted :rolleyes:

[bobert5064]

There is no requirement to be "P-25 enabled"