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Old 07-23-2013, 2:15 PM
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Thumbs down State of MN going Encrypted???

I've heard a rumor from a friend who is a FF in CG. He said that Washington County is going Encrypted by the end of this year. He also said that the whole State will eventually do the same. '

Can anyone confirm this??? I really don't want it to happen, all that money we put into our Digital Scanners down the drain!!
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Old 07-23-2013, 2:29 PM
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Perhaps.

On the other hand, some folks think going digital or to Phase 2 means people can't listen and equate that to encryption (encoding vs. encryption). I've even heard some users on a Motorola "private call" speak as if the conversation was encrypted (probably because it wasn't on a talkgroup that other could hear) - it wasn't.

I wouldn't worry about something that may or may not happen.... just enjoy.
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Old 07-23-2013, 3:47 PM
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I heard from jw and lc and sl that the state of mn doesnt say anything worthy of encryption...
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Old 07-24-2013, 1:08 AM
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As the saying goes "I'll believe it, when I see it"
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Old 07-24-2013, 7:57 AM
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I'd suspect its mostly cost prohibitive and it solves a relatively minor issue. To me the cost seems greater than the benefit.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troymail View Post
Perhaps.

On the other hand, some folks think going digital or to Phase 2 means people can't listen and equate that to encryption (encoding vs. encryption). I've even heard some users on a Motorola "private call" speak as if the conversation was encrypted (probably because it wasn't on a talkgroup that other could hear) - it wasn't.

I wouldn't worry about something that may or may not happen.... just enjoy.
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Originally Posted by jwilson2013 View Post
As the saying goes "I'll believe it, when I see it"
Thanks, I agree, I will enjoy untill something happens!
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Old 07-24-2013, 5:59 PM
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This may be the ROOT of the rumor

http://www.cmnradio.org/Portals/0/Do...Talkgroups.pdf
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Old 07-24-2013, 6:55 PM
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The state has actually been opposed to ENC of non-investigative or non-tactical team talkgroups. Troopers dont even have ENC on their mobile radios unless they are on a special operations group.

Cost isn't really even much of the issue. the primary issue is interop, and that was the selling point on this system to begin with.
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Last edited by mmtstc; 07-24-2013 at 6:56 PM.. Reason: cant p[ay attention
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Old 07-24-2013, 7:13 PM
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Default Re: State of MN going Encrypted???

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmtstc View Post
The state has actually been opposed to ENC of non-investigative or non-tactical team talkgroups. Troopers dont even have ENC on their mobile radios unless they are on a special operations group.
Could you possibly cite, or is this inside source?

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Old 07-25-2013, 9:21 AM
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There was a big discussion regarding it in SE a couple of years ago. I looked at a couple sets of meeting minutes, but honestly, don't have the time to snoop through every set of meeting minutes to find the info.

KB0UXV was actually on the SE encryption subcommittee, so he may be the best source, otherwise, i am sure that we have discussed this topic ad nauseum about every 3 months in this forum. Surely a search will send you in the right direction.
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Old 07-25-2013, 9:28 AM
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Default State of MN going Encrypted???

This topic reappears every 3-6. There was encryption in use prior to ARMER at similar levels to what is encrypted on ARMER.
It took months to get new Statewide Encrypted Tac groups using a standard shared DES key approved and it will be over a year until they are fully deployed. These groups were created due to the amount of task force traffic that was ending up on Ltacs and Ptacs in the clear. Encryption is currently not allowed on statewide interop talkgroups other than the designatd Encrypted groups.
Motorola ADP gets talked about as an option, but it is only supported on Motorola Equipment, and it is not supported on the Gold Elite Consoles which will not be phased out of the system until 2015.
I see TDMA channels as a greater threat to easily scanning ARMER than encryption and the State has not even decided if they will add TDMA at this time.
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Old 07-25-2013, 1:56 PM
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I've sufficiently been talked in from the ledge for the quarter
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Old 07-25-2013, 2:37 PM
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The main thing to remember when talking to a end user about their radio system is that they know they have a radio that works. Many don't understand that TAC doesn't mean encrypted. So I would be very careful about getting radio information and future upgrade information from FF's or LEO's.

I highly doubt the whole state would go ENC, they are way over budget the way it is. TDMA would come before ENC if they decide to go that route.
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Old 07-25-2013, 2:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kc0wkp View Post
The main thing to remember when talking to a end user about their radio system is that they know they have a radio that works. Many don't understand that TAC doesn't mean encrypted. So I would be very careful about getting radio information and future upgrade information from FF's or LEO's.
Yes!
State of MN going Encrypted???

I hear people clearly tell another user over the channel "this is encrypted" (if it were I wouldn't have been able to hear him say that.....)
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Old 07-25-2013, 7:18 PM
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I heard about 1 year ago that phase 2 of ARMERS was going to be TDMA 1&2
Then someone added that the PSR-800 will pickup TDMA 1,2
I must have misnderstood
What exactly is phase 2 of ARMER?
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Old 07-26-2013, 2:42 AM
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Default State of MN going Encrypted???

The ARMER system was built in phases
Phase 1 was the original Metro system and Phase 2 was the expansion of the Metro.
Phase 3 was Southeast and Central MN
Phase 4 was Arrowhead
Phase 5 Southwest and West Central
Phase 6 was the Northwest.
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Old 07-26-2013, 8:57 AM
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Default State Of MN Going Encrypted?

Then we will get the confusion of MN ARMER Phase 2 vs. APCO P25 Phase 2!
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Old 08-01-2013, 7:21 AM
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The main suggested best practice that came out of the encryption discussions (both state and regional levels) was to keep mains clear and strap encrypt certain tactical talkgroups if the radio is capable. Interoperability typically takes a higher priority than security especially in real priority events. But with that said, many of the late comers to ARMER did invest in encryption – and much of that has to do with the RR scanner feeds. This was not as much of an issue when the early metro users came on, but as the feeds became more popular it became an issue. Experience shows the average criminal either can’t afford the trunking scanner or does not have the knowledge to program it, but the scanner feeds are easy for them.
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Old 08-01-2013, 7:50 AM
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How many cases have there actually been where the criminal was using a stream? I've only heard of one last year. It seems to me they wouldnt be terribly useful for avoiding the police. They typically have a number of different channels and it would be easy to miss something, and then you'd have to know all the lingo and such. If you're actually being chased it usually goes to a tac channel which by the terms of service are not supposed to be in a scanner feed, the main reason I dont make my stream public.
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Old 08-01-2013, 7:58 AM
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I am not aware of any examples of someone using a feed while being chased. The points you mentioned, and the feed's audio delay, would probably be in the ARMER user's favor. The example I know about are more focused on drug and property crimes (burglaries). Sometimes the criminal group uses one member, who may not even be at the scene of the crime, to listen to the feed and phone or text the people on the scene when traffic is heard that threatens the criminal event.
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