Wright county MN programming

[raptor1186]

Hello,

Just picked up a pro 668 scanner today. Spent about 5 hours working on getting it programmed to wright county. I was wondering if anybody has any tricks to get it to work properly? I hear some things. Sometimes jarbled, sometimes clear. Other times I see it lock on a channel, but get no audio at all. I do notice the signal bar jumps all over the place, even being stationary. Jumps from 1 bar to 4, then back down. Any ideas why its doing that? Got it set to county law, fire, and ems. I seen people recommending the rs 800 mz antenna. Think that would fix the signal issue? I'm located in the monticello area. Only programmed the site control tower and alternate. Should i program all the frequencies? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Hope I posted in the right place. Thanks

 

[ofd8001]

I do not have any experience with this brand of scanner. However with Uniden scanners, varying signal strength levels is a normal thing.

You are listening to a digital system, so it is of no consequence whether you have 1 or all bars showing. With digital, you wither have reception or you don't - there is no noticeable difference in audio quality between a modest signal and strong signal.

The system you are trying to monitor is a simulcast system having multiple transmitter sites all using the same frequencies. As such your scanner is hearing multiple sites and the scanner is having trouble decoding the multiple signals. This manifests itself by either no audio or garbled audio.

On Uniden scanners this issue can be improved by setting site attenuation to on and fine tuning the P25 settings. You might see if your scanner has similar settings and see if you can find something that helps.

 

[dwgelle]

HI Raptor, you have some good ideas. Yes a 800mhz antenna should help, A directional "Yagi" will even better and point it at a site closest to you. Use should only have to program in the control channel and the alternates. And the issue you may be having is because the system is a simulcast system, so all the surrounding towers have the same frequencies and when one talkgroup comes up it is going out over 11 towers on the same frequencies and the scanners have a hard time decoding from all those signals, cant differentiate what to decode.

These articles may help you as well
T

Simulcast digital distortion - The RadioReference Wiki: Simulcast digital distortion - The RadioReference Wiki

Here is another thread the may help to if it is just in Wright Co Sherburne Co they are a 11 site simulcast system.

Wright County Buffalo http://forums.radioreference.com/minnesota-radio-discussion-forum/186508-wright-county-buffalo.html

 

[raptor1186]

Thanks guys.

I was thinking it was a simulcast issue. But I was a little unsure about the signal issue.

I have played around with some of the settings. So far, only made it worse. I will keep trying. Its going to be a trial and error thing. I will wait for the 800 mHz antenna to get here before playing around with it anymore.

I've also played with the attenuation. Turning it on leaves me with no audio at all. Don't even see it lock onto a channel.

I will see how the 800mHz anntena works. It would be here Tuesday or Wednesday. If I still have problems, I will look for a directional one. Hopfully I can find that map I seen of all the tower sites in the area.

I will post an update later next week. Thanks again.

 

[raptor1186]

I just sat down and programmed in Anoka county and the the ST Cloud area in the unit. Anoka county seems to coming in great. Getting a lot of hits there. St cloud, not so much as of yet. A little MSP talk, not much.

Wright county still hit and miss. Most likely more miss than hit. Will keep playing around with it.

I still have to learn what setting I adjust for the p25 settings. Adjusted the threasholds some. Any other tips there?

Just wanted to post an update. Thanks again for the help.

 

[raptor1186]

One last question for today.

I found the ARMER map thanks to RR. It is located here. https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ecn/programs/armer/Documents/armer-site-map-july-twenty-fifteen.pdf

The black squares indicate on air LE. If in were to get the directional antenna, would I need to point it towards the annandale tower? Or would the Enfield tower still work sinse it is simulcast? Enfield does not have the black square indicating on air LE.

Sorry for the back to back posts. Should be the last one.

Thanks again.

 

[NDRADIONUT]

Here is a lot of old discussion on your issue...

http://forums.radioreference.com/minnesota-radio-discussion-forum/309322-simulcast-multipath.html

 

[johnmoe1]

One last question for today.

I found the ARMER map thanks to RR. It is located here. https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ecn/programs/armer/Documents/armer-site-map-july-twenty-fifteen.pdf

The black squares indicate on air LE. If in were to get the directional antenna, would I need to point it towards the annandale tower? Or would the Enfield tower still work sinse it is simulcast? Enfield does not have the black square indicating on air LE.

Sorry for the back to back posts. Should be the last one.

Thanks again.

(As I recently learned) LE indicates "Local Enhancement" ... meaning paid for by a local government. It has nothing at all do with what is being carried by that tower. All simulcast sites (if the map shows Z-A:S-B-C for a tower, all towers that begin with Z-A:S-B are part of the same site) carry exactly the same data at exactly the same time*.


* or close enough for us to pretend that they are all at the same time

 

[ofd8001]

As I understand it, LE stands for "Local Enhancement". That's where a local community may wish to improve "in building" coverage of the ARMER system by adding one (or more sites) in addition to that provided by the state.

The intent of the state system was to provide outside radio coverage for state agencies (State Patrol, MnDOT). Since they typically do not conduct business inside large buildings, they are not "driven" to have coverage in such. So if a local community, who does "operate" in large structures (police, fire, etc), they have to augment the state system.

For your purposes, you'll probably want to try both to see which gives you the best results. There are too many variables (buildings, trees, topography) that come into play for anyone to tell you for sure.

What you are seeing is pretty typical of simulcast systems. Usually the worst decoding happens when you are right in the middle of a simulcast area. The farther away you get (as in at the edge of coverage), the "better" the sound is.

I get the clearest audio for my local simulcast system (13 sites) when I am 20 miles away. Go figure.

 

[raptor1186]

Ok, that makes more sense. I do remember reading about local enhancements at some point. Guess I didn't put it together. This is definitely a learning experience being my first digital scanner. I'm starting to get the hang of it.

Good news is I am getting a lot more transmitions out of Wright county. I played around with the threashold settings. Still drops some, but its a huge improvement. Lost most of Anoka county, but gained more state patrol along with my county.

I'm going to leave it as is until the 800mhz antenna arrives. I'm hoping that helps improve everything and allow me to monitor all 3 counties fairly well. If not, I will pick up a directional.

 

[ofd8001]

Modern scanners are very complicated - lots of different settings.

Adding to your challenge is the Minnesota ARMER system. It is a great system, very well thought out. But it is very elaborate with the many different sub-systems and how they overlay and interact with each other.

I've done a pretty good amount of scanner programming for various trips I have taken around the country. I haven't seen one as complicated/complex as Minnesota's around the Twin Cities.

So when you master that one, you can probably handle anything else.

If you haven't already, be sure to program in the interoperability talkgroups. You can hear a lot of very interesting stuff on these, from a good distance away, depending on conditions.

 

[edde]

Interesting reading these comments. Now I understand why Dakota County reception is the worst out everything I program. I live in Inver Grove Heights.

 

[Oriley]

.... be sure to program in the interoperability talkgroups.

Do you mean the list where you find the red control channel and blue alternate, you have to add all the ones in black too?

I'm catching on but it takes a while. Thanks!

 

[johnmoe1]

No. Do not add the black frequencies.

Interoperability talkgroups are the ones labeled "Interoperability" on the talkgroup list. They are used for events which involve multiple organizations.
L TACs are often used for vehicle pursuits.
S TACs are often used for helicopter landings.
ME TACs are used for all sorts of things.

 

[Oriley]

Okay, now I see what he means. I may have to add a few.

Thanks

 

[raptor1186]

Sweet. I didn't even think about adding those talkgroups. I will do that tonight.

Scanner is still working a lot better when I started. Lots of understandable transmitions. After a couple days of hearing garbled noise and silence, I was starting to wonder if it would ever work.

Anntenna will be here on Monday. I will report back on how things work with it on. I read good things about it.

 

[raptor1186]

Just wanted to post an update.

Got 2 new antennas. Ch-32 comet and RS 800mhz. Both seem to improve the signal better than the stock one. I'm still switching between them to see if one is better than the other for my area.

Both still give me simulcast distortion. The good news is after playing with all the settings and the improved reception, it's a lot better. I'm pretty happy with it.

I rarely see it lock on a channel and give no audio. Some transmitions will distort and continue on. Other times it will drop for a second and come back.

Weird thing is that it seems to change with the time of day. Also, I found a couple places in my home where it works better than others.

I wanted to say thanks for the tip on adding the interop channels. I do pick up some interesting stuff, and quite often. And it's been quite the variety.

Overall, Im am pretty happy with the setup now. I can enjoy listing to it most of the time, instead of getting frustrated with it. I will continue to play with the settings to see if I can get more improvement.

Thanks for all your help

 

[ofd8001]

Weird thing is that it seems to change with the time of day.

As time goes along, you'll probably also see differences depending on weather conditions and whether trees have leaves.

Also, I found a couple places in my home where it works better than others.

Those places are probably where parts of your home are "soaking up" or dampening of radio signals.

I've heard of folks bending paper clips and using these for antennas to eliminate the distortion.

There are some places in my community where I might hear a badly garbled signal and I can remove the antenna from my scanner and it clears up.

All part of the simulcast creature.

 

[mnrick]

How is your scanner working now? I think I am having similar issues. I live in Bloomington (Hennepin County) and most of what I am trying to listen to runs off the Hennepin system and I am getting a lot of broken transmissions or it stops on a talk group and I don't hear anything, just like you described.

My scanner is a Pro 652, Radio Shack. I just bought a 800 Mhz rubber antenna for it and can't tell if there is any improvement over the stock antenna.

Any advice for me?