MSHP 700MHZ Trunked Confirmed

[scannerboy65301]

I read in the legals section in my local newspaper a few days back and saw that the MSHP is now taking bids for a 700Mhz P-25 TRS. The money and movement is sponsored through a interoperability grant given to the State of Missouri. (probably stimulus money) THAT IS ALL OF THE DETAILS I HAVE AT THIS TIME! I do know that they mentioned a phrase that must mean something (WARES). I also know that HAM supporters also snuck in $75,000 for ham radios in EMA office in all counties in the Troop A zone. It was also kind of odd that the bids which by the way are open statewide are separated by MSHP troops all of the counties mentioned in the legals section just happened to be all of troop A's counties. I will try to keep everyone updated the best I can and also if anyone hears something from a little birdie on their shoulder please post a reply it would be extremely appreciated.

73
KD0FMG

[shaft]

Got a link to that? Everything I find shows that Nixon vetoed the money for the radio system last week.

[clayman]

It is a VHF P25 system, it was cut down to almost worthless, and signed a couple of weeks ago. From what I hear, they are going to keep the lowband stuff working as a back-up for the many areas that won't have coverage.
Clayton

[SOFA_KING]

That low band system kicks @$$! They should stay on it and forget that high priced trunking garbage. Since no one is on low band anymore (very few), they have lots of clear channels to choose from. No need to waste money on low range/high priced toy radios with BAD AUDIO!

Sorry...had to vent. I have been listening to MSHP for years. Remember the old radios back in the 70's...You know...the ones with the killer audio. KAA270 was king back in the day. I heard it day and night (in NY). Rolla sound fairly good here in FL. Long live low band!

Phil

[shaft]

Originally Posted by clayman

It is a VHF P25 system, it was cut down to almost worthless, and signed a couple of weeks ago. From what I hear, they are going to keep the lowband stuff working as a back-up for the many areas that won't have coverage.
Clayton

Got a link to that? The original RFP called for a 800mhz state wide trunked system. I'd be curious to see how they can just go purchase a VHF system without having to go out and seek bids on it.

[mjthomas59]

I've always heard rumors of a statewide system that incorporated VHF-HI and 700/800mhz frequencies. The problem in this state is that over 90% of the state uses VHF-HI. The funding required to change every dispatch center in the state, and upgrade every radio tower in the state, will cost millions.

The first thing this state needs to figure out is that you don't need hundreds of dispatch centers to run emergency operations. That is the biggest obstacle in interoperability. When you call 911 is it going to your local PD, the county, the state, a privately owned dispatch center who dispatches ambulance and fire(ex.. central county 911 for the saint louis, st charles, jeffco, franklin county area). Our county 911 system spends more time transfering calls to "your ambulance service" or "your fire department". Its a huge waste of time, its very easy to make errors, and ultimately the tax-payers are the ones who suffer for it.

So after we've cut the dispatch centers in this state down to about 2 or 3 per county then we can start talking about interoperability. Its no secret that 800mhz systems aren't that great in terms of covering large areas. When you couple that with the tolerances on a digital system transmitting and receiving clear voice audio and you run into some major problems.

Its nice to see that our state has atleast had the forethought to recognized the limitations of 800mhz radio systems when coupled with a realistic budget for implementing the system, and come to the conclusion that the money will be better spent on providing P25 VHF-HI as a way of communicating across the state when the 800mhz doesn't cut it.

The next issue though is that until recent you couldn't buy a commercial radio that could transmit on more than one band. So you are still left with equipping every ambulance, fire truck, volunteer vehicle, police car, etc with multiple high priced radios. Every mobile antenna you buy is about 30 bucks, every radio that is P25 is gonna be several thousand, and next thing you know you have more money in the radios you are putting in the police car than the car itself is worth. Now I have seen several newer radios from Midland and I believe Motorola that are capable of multiple bands, of course you get the high price tag to go with them.

Regardless what we have isn't doing the job very effectively or efficiently. Every radio system, whether it be local, county, or statewide is going to have dead spots. Your portable radio won't work most of the time and in most cases the portable radio is what is actually keeping our public safety professionals alive and in tune with what is going on. The firefighters on 9/11 wouldn't have been saved if there mobile radios would have picked up a police broadcast, they needed their portable radios to pick it up. Its sad but the HAM radios are a step ahead in that ball game. A multi-band ham radio isn't all that expensive, a multi-band commerical radio I don't even believe is in existance.

Here is a link to all that I could find on the internet and it is over a year old:

http://onlineplanroom.docucopyllc.co...image_id=85756

Certainly interesting, but money will always be the deciding factor.

[SOFA_KING]

I think there should only be one 911 dispatch center per county. Maybe two or three in a metro area.

The answer is simple! Set up links to intersystem channels on all of the towers. You are never going to solve the multi-band radio problem...and I agree that you should not waste money installing multiple band radios in each vehicle. Waste of lots of money there. Trunking is very expensive and sucks! You get locked into your little world and it is harder to communicate with outside agencies...or agencies on other trunked TG's. I have yet to see a trunked system that has a channle plan with interops channels included in the standard operating "zone". This is simple...Just set aside I/O channels on each band and do a PL tone selection to dial up the cross-band link you need on the tower you need. Not hard...not that expensive...just do it! It is called KISS mode, and it works!

Phil

[milf]

Take a look at the AWIN, SAFE-T for examples of good set ups. The AWIN radios all have interop tgs set up for each zone in each radio. For example an AWIN HT used by Garland County OEM- Primary Zone is K, same as the State Police district. The talkgroups in the radio are as follows for this HT in Zone K: Garland County (HSPD,GCSO,GCOEM,HSFD all have use of this.) ADEM Central 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, MAC CALL, All the ADEM MAC's, Statewide Weather (for direct reporting to NWS ) K-EMS. For LE side of things- K-Law, and ALL the MAC LEA tg's. Plus other Zones are also programmed in the radios.

Another example from the SAFE-T- Marion County/Indianapolis- You have not only access to the IDHS, but the Statewide Mutual Aid TG's, ISP's District 52 Mutual Aid TG's, among others. For more see the VIPER, Palmetto 800, and Palmetto 25, among others.

[SOFA_KING]

Glad to hear someone made a channel plan that takes advantage of the I/O TG's! So many don't. My county TRS has an I/O TG for just about everything, but they are all in a zone no one knows. And loosing contact with your dispatcher is a big no/no, so going out of zone is not done very often. Whoever made the templates, or told them how they were to be done, was an idiot. And the surrounding counties and the State of FL TRS systems do not talk to each other. Again, trunking sucks because you are locked into your own "little" world. Conventional works! You just have to keep it simple and do it right. It is easy and cheap!

One thing that doesn't work with trunking is going conventional. The radios can scan conventional and trunking at the same time, but you loose priority, which makes scan useless...And operation on conventional is nearly scanless without priority. At least that is my experience with a XTS3000. Better radio design would help.

I programmed a whole scan list on my GRE for all remaining low band state agencies. MO is killer! I hear them over everything else. First to come in and last to go out on openings. And I love the sound of the Rolla transmitter. Not quite as good as the old systems, but better than most of the other troops...plus there is an old timer dispatcher that has that deep slow drawl gravel voice that sounds like the dispatchers' of the 70's. Brings back many memories of my early DX days when Poplar Bluff "kay double A two seventy" ruled. I will miss listening to MO if they do vacate low band!

Phil

[scannerboy65301]

*****UPDATE*****
*****UPDATE*****
The EMA Communications Director of my county went to a conference today to discuss more about this grant. I can now say that this grant, bond, whatever you want to call it has and will pay for radio interoperability in MSHP troop A. I have not heard yet if they will do this for every troop in Missouri. They did mention though that with this money will be $100 Million for the new trunked system for MSHP which they have now said will either be 700 or 800mhz. This also will put various amateur equipment vhf,uhf,hf in hospitals, fire departments, etc. And for the wide area interoperability system (WIAS). This will be one black box with a few uhf, vhf, 800,700mhz radios inside it. What this will do is connect repeaters via IP interconnect. So lets say my county is in a pursuit and they are about to leave into another county. The dispatch centers for each county would connect their respective repeaters so virtually and physically nobody will have to change a channel or worry about getting everybody on mutual aid or sheriff net it will all be done with a few clicks of a mouse by one or two people. Now since they are putting 800mhz in these "black boxes" as they call them, I sure hope they would find a way to connect TRS's to them also, now that my friends would be true interop unless another child molester celebrity dies and the internet becomes a major cluster fudge. They did say that they eventually want to add hams into the equation but that is pretty far down the road. I hope that can clue everyone in to whats happening and I do agree the MSHP lo band all they would need to do is upgrade it because in the meeting/conference they were talking about a ONE fixed location for the system in each county which you and I both know wont work.

Any questions PM or something

[scannerboy65301]

Originally Posted by mjthomas59

I've always heard rumors of a statewide system that incorporated VHF-HI and 700/800mhz frequencies. The problem in this state is that over 90% of the state uses VHF-HI. The funding required to change every dispatch center in the state, and upgrade every radio tower in the state, will cost millions.

The first thing this state needs to figure out is that you don't need hundreds of dispatch centers to run emergency operations. That is the biggest obstacle in interoperability. When you call 911 is it going to your local PD, the county, the state, a privately owned dispatch center who dispatches ambulance and fire(ex.. central county 911 for the saint louis, st charles, jeffco, franklin county area). Our county 911 system spends more time transfering calls to "your ambulance service" or "your fire department". Its a huge waste of time, its very easy to make errors, and ultimately the tax-payers are the ones who suffer for it.

So after we've cut the dispatch centers in this state down to about 2 or 3 per county then we can start talking about interoperability. Its no secret that 800mhz systems aren't that great in terms of covering large areas. When you couple that with the tolerances on a digital system transmitting and receiving clear voice audio and you run into some major problems.

Its nice to see that our state has atleast had the forethought to recognized the limitations of 800mhz radio systems when coupled with a realistic budget for implementing the system, and come to the conclusion that the money will be better spent on providing P25 VHF-HI as a way of communicating across the state when the 800mhz doesn't cut it.

The next issue though is that until recent you couldn't buy a commercial radio that could transmit on more than one band. So you are still left with equipping every ambulance, fire truck, volunteer vehicle, police car, etc with multiple high priced radios. Every mobile antenna you buy is about 30 bucks, every radio that is P25 is gonna be several thousand, and next thing you know you have more money in the radios you are putting in the police car than the car itself is worth. Now I have seen several newer radios from Midland and I believe Motorola that are capable of multiple bands, of course you get the high price tag to go with them.

Regardless what we have isn't doing the job very effectively or efficiently. Every radio system, whether it be local, county, or statewide is going to have dead spots. Your portable radio won't work most of the time and in most cases the portable radio is what is actually keeping our public safety professionals alive and in tune with what is going on. The firefighters on 9/11 wouldn't have been saved if there mobile radios would have picked up a police broadcast, they needed their portable radios to pick it up. Its sad but the HAM radios are a step ahead in that ball game. A multi-band ham radio isn't all that expensive, a multi-band commerical radio I don't even believe is in existance.

Here is a link to all that I could find on the internet and it is over a year old:

http://onlineplanroom.docucopyllc.co...image_id=85756

Certainly interesting, but money will always be the deciding factor.

Almost all public servants in my county have p25 capable radios and they just do not use them due to the fact that we are a fairly large county with many deadzones even on old vhf 15khz wideband. There are spots in the county where you cant even hit a repeater on a 500ft tower with a110watt mobile. So digital in my county will not work period. Its killing us already switching everything to narrowband 12.5khz

[kb0nhx]

It's a long story, but the whole 700 MHz system is dead. Yeah, it was in the original RFP to the tune of like $189 million, and with the change of office was put on hold. After several months of reviewing, the new governor decided to re-visit it. State reps wanted to allot about $110 mil to the project, Gov thought it could be done for about $80 mil, so that's what they ended up with.

The "new" proposed system will be VHF only except in some metro areas already with 700, like KC. The mobiles and portables will be Motorola APX dual band radios, with a DVR (Digital Vehicle Repeater).

The system is not designed for portable coverage, mobile only. All the interoperability "black boxes" were dropped from the plan due to the budgetary cuts.

So, basically they were the only public safety agency on Analog 42 MHz. Now, they'll be the only agency on VHF P-25 digital trunking in the state. Where's the advantage?

And they want to do all this with less power at each base station and less towers statewide than currently in use on lowband?

Motorola says they can have it built out in 2 years statewide, it will be interesting . . . .

[milf]

Isn't MOST of the state using VHF hi band??? This makes a real easy patch in especially if it is an Motorola ASTRO-25 system. It can easily be plugged into the STARCOM, AWIN, and other surrounding systems for complete interoperability. Plus VHF Hi band in MO will give better range and coverage. Now instead of having at least 2 radios in cruisers,... You have the one, and just add the county freqs you work in as conventional. A lil basic training on how the system operates, and after a lil getting used to.. voila....

[stateboy]

Originally Posted by kb0nhx

The "new" proposed system will be VHF only except in some metro areas already with 700, like KC. The mobiles and portables will be Motorola APX dual band radios, with a DVR (Digital Vehicle Repeater).

The system is not designed for portable coverage, mobile only. All the interoperability "black boxes" were dropped from the plan due to the budgetary cuts.

So, basically they were the only public safety agency on Analog 42 MHz. Now, they'll be the only agency on VHF P-25 digital trunking in the state. Where's the advantage?

And they want to do all this with less power at each base station and less towers statewide than currently in use on lowband?

Motorola says they can have it built out in 2 years statewide, it will be interesting . . . .

This will be interesting to watch.

I sincerely hope that /\/\ realizes how few sites MSHP uses for lowband, and the power levels they run. They just got new base stations a couple years ago, which I was told they run ~500-1000 watts for normal operations, but can use full bore (~3,000 watts I believe) when needed. Apparently, if the base station is jacked up to full power, any one site can cover a large chunk of the state. Normally, I'd say that I'd pay money to see someone mimic this coverage...but with highband I know it's not possible.

I can not understand why they want to go away from lowband. They have new base stations, new 110w Kenwood TK-690's and 50w TK-790's and they already use vehicular repeaters (have for decades). Why the sudden desire to change? With the TK-790 in the car, they are interoperable with 90% of the state. Add a metro radio for those troops that need it and carry on.

Good thing I've got some vintage MSHP lowband gear...looks like it will move from "retired" to "historical relic" in short order.

[PJH]

You have to remember the terrian and the use with lowband.

What some of you may not know, is that there are only a few makes/models out there to purchase for lowband. Site equipment is even more scarce to find...and also the equipment tends to be larger and more cumbersome (mobiles, portables and site equipment). Ever see a lowband duplexer?

By going the P25 route, your not locked into one manufacture. You can choose from Thales, Harris, EFJ and Motorola for multiband equipment. FYI, the APX7000 isn't a cheap portable. A "loaded" radio runs about $9000 each list, and currently the best discount is 10%. Granted they won't buy all that, but your still looking at around 4-5k+ per radio, per trooper.

I still think lowband is a great band, but there are so many advanced and intergrated extra's that can be had with VHF and up.

I will doubt the 500+ watts being used my MSHP...at least legally. I would like to their FCC licenses. We tried to up ours for the FD, and the best they would give us was our current 100watt.

[milf]

MO HP is licensed for 5000 watts on some stations.. http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?cs=KAA202

[shaft]

Troop C is licensed for 5k as well. They dont run at that power most of the time, but you can tell when they kick it up.

[PJH]

Hate to be a bird sitting next to that antenna.

Does anyone know the history for such extreme power? Seems to be a bit overkill.

[nd5y]

Originally Posted by PJH

Does anyone know the history for such extreme power? Seems to be a bit overkill.

I can't link directly to this document for some reason.
Go to this page: ULS Application - Public Safety Pool, Conventional - 0001110641 - MISSOURI, STATE OF - Administration
Scroll halfway down to "Attachments" and read "3 page letter".

[redhelmet13]

Several years ago, a friend of mine sent a QSL card to the head of the communications division, he got a really nice and informative letter back from them... There was mention of having to get transmitter tubes for the base transmitters from Russia since they are no longer available in the US. They ran well below the listed power to conserve the equipment as much as possible.