Saint Louis City Police changes

[polo807]

With the new chief installed some of his plans were made public.
1st They are going from 9 district to 6 districts.
2nd He is ending the Rapid Deployment Unit which was the former Mobile Reserve Unit.
3rd He is keeping the SWAT Team , I did not see see anything about fully encryption yet.
For all of you that are lucky enough to get the city you already know what is encrypted,( Were I am at in Creve Couer) I sometimes get SODD off the St. Charles Tower and it is the 769.7562 mhz and hear a few cars encrypted when I do pick them up I do hear some encryption but it is not every district or every Unit the dispatchers are still fully wide open.

So please keep your eyes open for the realignment of the districts. I don't know what District are going to be eliminated and there was no talk if they are going to close any off the area super stations. The term South and North were used times. Being a former officer I could see them keeping the South Patrol open with the 700 mhz tower (3157 Sublette Dist 1,2,3,) and the North Patrol located (4014 Union Blvd Dist 6,7.8 ) 800 mhz tower but the Central Patrol on Jefferson Ave ( Dist 4.5.9) which is the only Area Station without a radio tower could be closed., Police headquarters on 1200 Clark with the Communations/911 Divisions and the Dispatch Tower) will stay open until they move to a different building .

[kruser]

Thanks for the updates! Keep a look out for a new district map.

According to the FCC license and the North Patrol sites database page here, both Sublette and Union are the North Patrol towers. It is a simulcast site. I know sublette carries the 800 MHz system as I took a frequency counter to that site a while back and it did lock onto the 855.6375 control channel.

The 700 system known as the South Patrol does not even have a licensed location today. It is licensed as a low power itinerant license used for interop purposes now and only two watts. The RR database page does not agree with the FCC license for the system known as the South Patrol site. The database page for the South Patrol site does show it as being at Sublette but that site went off the air over a year ago. When it was reported to be back on the air, I could never get a signal from it. So something major changed with the South Patrol site while it was off the air for about a year.
I don't understand the FCC license for the South Patrol licenses. The database page here is showing that it is at Sublette but the FCC license does not indicate that. They do not agree. Now I wonder if the south patrol site is really on the air as a trunked system or not. The database says yes, the FCC says no!

The north patrol tower simulcasts its signal from both locations, Sublette and Union. It is the primary system for the entire city regardless of its North Patrol name. The south patrol site never carried much traffic before it was taken off the air over a year ago. I know they did not have many 700 MHz capable radios back when the South Patrol 700 MHz system was on the air which would explain the low usage.

The tower on Clark is also licensed but not as a base station like Union and Sublette are.

I don't expect any changes in the radio system other than the possibility of encryption but even that has not changed over the last year or longer. The first batch of encrypted users are still about the same amount of encrypted users today. Maybe 10% of the total radio traffic is encrypted if even that much.
I've not noticed any increase in encryption since I first heard encryption on the system well over a year ago so who knows what is up with that plan.
I still keep expecting to turn my radio on one day and only find encrypted traffic but that has not been the case. We can only hope it stays that way!

The shifting of districts will be interesting. I wonder when a new district map will become available.
Might be fun to listen to the switch!

The listing here in the database for the South Patrol 700 MHz site is goofy. It is showing two 800 MHz frequencies mixed in with the 700 stuff and then try and run an FCC license search on the 700 MHz frequencies and it does not show any licensed users at all. The actual 700 MHz license I found has different frequencies than those listed here for the south patrol site.

Can anyone confirm if the 700 MHz South Patrol site is really on the air and if so, what is the actual control channel frequency?

[kruser]

I did a bit more digging on the 700 system.
There are three licenses shown under the south patrol site.

One (WPTZ785) is actually licensed to the State of Missouri but that one does not list any frequencies or locations. Perhaps for MOSWIN use??

One (WQFX336) is licensed to the City of St. Louis and that is the Itinerant license I mentioned which has several 700 single frequency (no repeater) channels and only 2 watts of power. All portable or mobile use. None of the 700 MHz listings for that license match up with what is shown here for the South Patrol site.

The third license (WQMY388) is licensed to Bi-State but that one only shows two 800 MHz frequencies and not a single 700 MHz frequency. The 800 MHz frequencies it shows are the two that are listed in the database here and those same frequencies are also used on the North Patrol site.

So with that, I really have no clue as to what is going on with the South Patrol site. Is it on the air or not?

Surely someone in the city can report if it is active or not!
And using the frequencies listed in the database here.

[lynxrufus]

[

Originally Posted by kruser

The third license (WQMY388) is licensed to Bi-State but that one only shows two 800 MHz frequencies and not a single 700 MHz frequency. The 800 MHz frequencies it shows are the two that are listed in the database here and those same frequencies are also used on the North Patrol site.

Not only are those the same frequencies, it's the same license as the North tower. I don't live in the city but I'm close, and actually closer to the South tower than the North (about as close as you can get without being in the city). Last time I checked, I didn't get anything on the 700 mHz frequencies. After I've moved the computer close enough that the scanner programming cable will reach, I'll program the South tower 700mHz frequencies again (I'm to lazy to use the keys on the scanner). I've been planning for a while to check this out. I'm skeptical. I suspect that use of the South tower is rather limited. It may be more a backup than anything else.

[kruser]

Originally Posted by lynxrufus

[Not only are those the same frequencies, it's the same license as the North tower. I don't live in the city but I'm close, and actually closer to the South tower than the North (about as close as you can get without being in the city). Last time I checked, I didn't get anything on the 700 mHz frequencies. After I've moved the computer close enough that the scanner programming cable will reach, I'll program the South tower 700mHz frequencies again (I'm to lazy to use the keys on the scanner). I've been planning for a while to check this out. I'm skeptical. I suspect that use of the South tower is rather limited. It may be more a backup than anything else.

Sounds good! Let us know what you find.
I suspect you will find no signal but they could have applied for new frequencies for a south site. I've not tried searching the applications for anything in the city.

[nick1427d]

I get a signal from south tower sometimes but no traffic...ever. No signal as of today.

[lynxrufus]

Originally Posted by kruser

Sounds good! Let us know what you find.
I suspect you will find no signal but they could have applied for new frequencies for a south site. I've not tried searching the applications for anything in the city.

So far I've heard data on 769.21875 and 769.66875 - no voice but they could be simulcasting the two 800MHz frequencies.

[kruser]

Originally Posted by lynxrufus

So far I've heard data on 769.21875 and 769.66875 - no voice but they could be simulcasting the two 800MHz frequencies.

That's exactly what they did before when the south site was running over a year ago, what came out of the 700 MHz south site also came out of the so called North Patrol site.

[kruser]

Originally Posted by lynxrufus

So far I've heard data on 769.21875 and 769.66875 - no voice but they could be simulcasting the two 800MHz frequencies.

Is that constant streaming data (like a control channel) or just random shorter bursts of data?

I tried both those freqs on my R9000 and no signal at all here but I did not sit on them for much longer than a few seconds each.

[lynxrufus]

Originally Posted by kruser

Is that constant streaming data (like a control channel) or just random shorter bursts of data?

On 769.21875, it sounds like Morse Code. It comes on for only a second or two at a time.

On 769.66875, it sounds more like a buzsaw. It's not continuous but lasts several seconds at a time. It was fairly active Monday afternoon. I heard voice on that frequency this morning.

This morning I heard voice on 770.40625-- fire department dispatch, very clear. As I type this I hear EMS dispatch. The database shows this as an alternate control channel.

Decoding the North control channel with pro96 shows 774.08125 as the control channel for the South site, which is what the RR database shows. I've heard nothing on that frequency. The database shows a site number of 1 for the North tower. Pro96 shows site number 201, with adjacent sites 203 and 205 (203 is the Jones Dome and 205 is the south tower).

[lynxrufus]

I'm hearing a significant amount of traffic, both data and voice, on some 700MHz frequencies listed for the South tower but I hear nothing on the supposed South tower control channel. Looking at the North site control channel data with both pro96com and unitracker, I don't see any 700Mhz frequencies. This I don't understand (not the only thing). Do radios that get a better signal from the South tower somehow convert the 800MHz frequencies sent by the North tower control channel to 700MHz frequencies?

The fire dept. tranmissions I hear on the 700MHz frequencies do seem to originate from trucks that would be closer to the South tower than the North. I'm familiar with the District 3 apparatus numbers and transmissions originated by them do seem to account for a lot of the FD traffic I hear on the 700MHz frequencies.

I've also heard police and EMS on the 700MHz frequencies.

[kruser]

Originally Posted by lynxrufus

I'm hearing a significant amount of traffic, both data and voice, on some 700MHz frequencies listed for the South tower but I hear nothing on the supposed South tower control channel. Looking at the North site control channel data with both pro96com and unitracker, I don't see any 700Mhz frequencies. This I don't understand (not the only thing). Do radios that get a better signal from the South tower somehow convert the 800MHz frequencies sent by the North tower control channel to 700MHz frequencies?

The fire dept. tranmissions I hear on the 700MHz frequencies do seem to originate from trucks that would be closer to the South tower than the North. I'm familiar with the District 3 apparatus numbers and transmissions originated by them do seem to account for a lot of the FD traffic I hear on the 700MHz frequencies.

I've also heard police and EMS on the 700MHz frequencies.

I assume everything you are hearing is P25 correct?
Your mention of hearing both data and voice is making me think the voice is possible analog hence the reason for asking the question.
If everything is in P25, that there may be a new control channel on the air.

I'll plug them all in and see if I can get any signal here at all.

I never understood how the original south tower worked before it went off the air over a year ago. I only know that everything you heard on the south tower was also broadcast at the same time on the north tower.
I always assumed they had some south cars outfitted with radios that could do both 800 and 700. As light as the 700 traffic was though, it did not seem like a lot of cars had radios that worked on 700. I always felt that maybe they placed the 700 radios in cars that worked areas that had known 800 MHz coverage problems. Then that system went off the air one day and before I could ever really figure it out. It was gone at least a year but from your findings, it appears some of it is back working again.

I did think Pro96com did show that the 700 site was a neighbor of the North tower under the site info tab.
If so, that should list the control channel the 700 site is using. I've never seen that info wrong but who knows, it could be just displaying what the site controller is spitting out and that is bum info.

I'll also run Pro96com again on the North site and see what it says for the neighbors and if the 700 site is listing the same CC as listed for the south site in the database here.
I did find that reference to the 700 license only being 2 watts and if it is, that may explain why you can't get the control channel especially if some of the voice channel antenna's are located up high on the tower and the CC radio is mounted down low.
And if it is running with that low power level, it must have been redesigned for a very limited area of use. I was going to suggest maybe it was re-purposed for fire only but you are reporting hearing fire and PD traffic on some of the 700 MHz channels. I know they did install some in building repeaters to satisfy fires needs before they would move to the system. Those are low power and could be in the 700 band to eliminate multipath issues. The PD traffic and EMS could have been because those units were on scene with fire and that system is what worked best. That's just one big guess though.

Thanks for your reports thus far!
I'll report back if I can copy any 700 traffic at all or if I learn anything else.

[kruser]

Originally Posted by lynxrufus

I'm hearing a significant amount of traffic, both data and voice, on some 700MHz frequencies listed for the South tower but I hear nothing on the supposed South tower control channel.

If you have the capabilities, try searching between 773.77500 and 773.78200 for a control channel.
I'm getting a data signal on about 773.78125 or 773.77875.
It's coming from the south tower direction but I can't get any locks on the signal but it sounds like a P25 control channel. My center tune indicators do not agree between the two radios I'm using so that's why I gave a small range to search between as I'm not certain of the true center frequency.

If you get something, see if Pro96com will decode it and say what it is. It could be a Starcom site also.
I scanned through all the 700 listings for the South site and never heard any hint of a signal but I may have not sat on each one long enough.

I can only hear the above control channel sound on any of my Icom receivers, no CC sound or signal at all in the range above on any Uniden or GRE here. Not sure what is up with that as the GRE will usually pull in the weak signals pretty well. It is showing signal on its little bargraph meter though so the PSR600 could be experiencing desense from something else.
The audio just sounds like pure white noise on the Uniden or GRE models.
Could also be some weird image that only appears in the Icom's.

[lynxrufus]

What I'm hearing is P-25 digital. At least most of it is. Maybe they simulcast on 800MHz and 700MHz and the radios can pick the best signal. And maybe I'm picking low power transmissions from one of the firehouses. I'm close enough to a couple of them that I wouldn't entirely rule that out. Sometimes the trucks are so close I can't hear them very well. It seems that with P-25 trunking, the closer a radio is, the harder it is to hear.

The north tower CC does show the south tower control channel, as an LCN. Calculating the frequency yeilds the frequency shown in the database for the south tower. Either unitracker or pro96com (or both) shows the LCN but shows the frequency as 0000. The same for the Jones Dome. Those are the two neighbors shown.

I'll try searching for a control channel.

[kruser]

The data channel I'm hearing is weak signal but it is centered on 773.78125.
It sure sounds like a motorola cc sound but could be simple data in another format. The signal has weakened some since I first noticed it.

I ran an FCC search and nothing in MO or IL is licensed for that frequency under the normal ULS search. Only a couple stations are licensed there and most are in Alaska.

I also saw the same in Pro96com and that control channel does match what is shown for the south site's CC. It may be an unsolved mystery!

I've been sitting on 769.218750 but not a peep. Do you recall which frequencies you heard the P25 traffic on or was it on all listed here other than the CC frequency? If I knew that, I could concentrate on just the ones you actually heard something on.
I am really wondering now if it really may be something setup for fire's use mainly. Like one of those in building low power repeaters I'd read they were installing in some buildings basements.

[nick1427d]

Originally Posted by kruser

I am really wondering now if it really may be something setup for fire's use mainly. Like one of those in building low power repeaters I'd read they were installing in some buildings basements.

I know on the county's end that there will be a lot of these repeaters going up in buildings all around st. louis county for the upcoming P25 system.

Therefore I would assume that city has a few of these installed in problematic areas. I know of a few of them in St. Clair County IL that were put in place after the system went online and they found some deadspots. I can say from experience that they work rather well.

It's the major drawback of a trunking system imo, if you can't hit a repeater no one's hearing you.

I'm a huge fan of simplex fireground channels which would eliminate this problem.

Ok I'm off the soapbox

[kruser]

Ok, I can get a very good signal from just one frequency only. 769.66875.
Nothing at all on the others.
I entered all listed frequencies into a scan bank on my Icom R9000 so I could see the signal strength and channel activity.
I then programmed all frequencies again but into a empty bank in an Icom PCR-2500 with the P25 option.
It decoded the P25 voice just great but only sees 769.66875.
It's almost like that frequency is running in a one or single channel trunk mode as the R2500 does display the talkgroup and radio ID's.
So far after maybe two hours, it has all been talkgroup 10201 which is the primary EMS talkgroup. The same comms heard on 769.66875 are simulcast at the same time on any channel on the North tower. I seem to miss no comms at all when the 769.66875 channel is in use. The transmitter can drop and when the talkgroup comes back up, the North site will usually be using a different frequency but 769.66875 is always the one I hear TG 10201 on.
So it's like the 700 site is running in a conventional P25 mode or a single channel trunk mode. I did not think conventional P25 showed a talkgroup though so that is why I think it may be running in single channel trunk mode as the R2500 does display the talkgroup which is of course the same as the North site is showing.
On 769.66875, I get a great signal also. No multipath heard at all, signal decodes at 100% as far as I can tell and the talkgroup always comes on that frequency even if they pause long enough for the transmitter to drop.

I now wonder if they took all six frequencies, or whatever they have, of the South site frequencies and are using them in single channel trunked mode placed around the city for fire and ems use mainly.
I'm back to my guess that this system or site was redone and is now being used for the in building repeaters they were said to have installed but it is no longer running in a multi frequency trunked mode. Each frequency is assigned individually for each building they are located in or on.

I'm not near enough to confirm this though as I can only seem to get the one frequency. If the others are in use at the same location, I think I'd hear something on the Icom R9000 but it stays completely quiet on all but 769.66875.

None show up with a standard FCC ULS search either except in other states far away.
Are they running these unlicensed or do they fall under some other category that makes them not show up in a ULS search or maybe being low power, they are not required to be licensed individually if they are controlled by a larger system such as the North site. I don't know the answer to that but the whole thing is interesting!
Now I wonder if there may not be a bunch more frequencies in use in the same manner that also do not show up in a typical ULS search.

[kruser]

Originally Posted by nick1427d

I know on the county's end that there will be a lot of these repeaters going up in buildings all around st. louis county for the upcoming P25 system.

Therefore I would assume that city has a few of these installed in problematic areas. I know of a few of them in St. Clair County IL that were put in place after the system went online and they found some deadspots. I can say from experience that they work rather well.

It's the major drawback of a trunking system imo, if you can't hit a repeater no one's hearing you.

I'm a huge fan of simplex fireground channels which would eliminate this problem.

Ok I'm off the soapbox

Hey Nick!
I missed your post until tonight. Yep, it does appear they may be using single channel repeaters but I can't confirm any location data as none of the frequencies are returning any results when doing an FCC search. Again tonight, 769.66875 is very active for me but is still only carrying EMS talk. Have not heard fire at all yet. I've heard the EMS units tell their dispatcher that the injured walked away when fire arrived on scene though. That kinda says fire is not using the same repeater as I never hear them. Maybe they have another frequency for fire so those guys are assured a signal even if EMS is talking. That would be a good idea if that is not the case. I do hear fire talking on the North tower relating to what I'm hearig EMS saying on the 700 frequency so they are talking, just nothing coming over the listed south tower frequencies for me.
I plan on running some searches over the weekend of the 700 MHz public safety portion of the 700 band and seeing if I can find any other unlisted repeaters running in single channel mode that may come alive around the same time that 769.66875 comes alive figuring EMS and Fire often work together.
I think I figured their slice of the pie in the 700 band runs from 765 to 790 but I need to confirm that so I'm not searching non public safety frequencies. The band breakdown I found last night may have been old and no longer accurate.
Do you know of any current band charts showing the limits for public safety users in the 700 band?

[nd5y]

769.66875 and 773.78125 are 700 MHz State License channels. That means there is no site based license. You may be able to find what county they are assigned to in CAPRAD. You can also find the 700 MHz public safety band plan there.

For instructions on how to navigate CAPRAD see this post.

[kruser]

Originally Posted by nd5y

769.66875 and 773.78125 are 700 MHz State License channels. That means there is no site based license. You may be able to find what county they are assigned to in CAPRAD. You can also find the 700 MHz public safety band plan there.

For instructions on how to navigate CAPRAD see this post.

Interesting stuff. Now I know why they no longer have a site license for what was the South site in the city.
They sure are making things harder to find with all these licensing and other changes such as what is in CAPRAD.

Thanks for the info and links. It looks like it's time to kick back and read for a while!

EDIT: It appears CAPRAD may not be up to date. I tried looking for the two frequencies you listed and I don't see them under Missouri as a State License nor under any of the Sites or Licenses resources. I don't doubt what you are saying as the general info for CAPRAD explains it pretty well. It just does not show either of those frequencies as a State License frequency for STL County or City and there was nothing listed for Statewide. I think I saw them in other counties though.
I'm confused why the City of St. Louis would use a State License frequency for what is clearly being used for EMS and Fire comms within the city limits. And then what is heard on the one I can get, is simulcast over their 800 MHz citywide P25 system.
I did see somewhere (on CAPRAD I think) where there are allotments for EMS, Fire, PD and I think one other that I've now forgotten. I think that was in the general 700 MHz bandplan file I found on caprad. It looked like each of the users above had a certain amount of channels available for use.
I need to search around that site more when I'm more awake as I'm sure I missed some info or links within the site itself.

CAPRAD itself is pretty neat and was not hard to figure out other than the button that allows you to select a new region. I missed that button and the page that the "continue" link took you too was not the normal region page that showed all states. I thought the site broke and I was in an endless loop. Then I saw the Change Region button over on the top left of the page!