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Mototrbo for Public Saftey?

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colby4601

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Bad idea. TRBO equipment is meant for commercial/business use. Not mission critical communications where the failure of a radio in a fire or a pursuit could result in the loss of life.
 

NickH

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Been using a TRBO portable at my EMS gig for over a year, Analog audio is superior to any other radio I've used, and that includes my XTS5000. TRBO is not "commercial grade" it's technically in Moto's "Expert" teir.
 

Jay911

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First things first to me is the lack of interoperability with other agencies. I know it's a buzz word, but it's an important one to me. If my neighbor is using TRBO and I can't talk to him because I'm not, that's no good.

Second is the fact that it's not designed for public safety use. IIRC, there is no provision for an "emergency button" on a TRBO radio, or is there?
 

SteveC0625

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I'm with you, Jay. Around here most Fire and EMS systems, county by county, are just moving to the mandated narrow band, but staying with conventional analog VHF. Most of the state-wide interop channels for Fire and EMS are VHF High analog narrow band anyway so it makes good sense to keep daily "in-county" operations on the same radios and in the same frequency bands.

Besides that, the only proven pagers out there do not work in any of the trunked or digital worlds yet, in particular the Minitor V.

Even the very populous county that I worked in for my entire career has stuck with conventional analog (narrow band of course) VHF for Fire and EMS. Their law enforcement has been UHF for many years, and when they migrated to a new system, they went P25 digital on their existing UHF channels, but did not bother with trunking.

I am a huge fan of the KISS principle for public safety systems.
 

mikewazowski

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First things first to me is the lack of interoperability with other agencies.

It interoperates just fine with other agencies.

Most areas have set aside mutual aide frequencies that are analog and carrier squelch.

We've got a fire department in our area that's P25 but they and the agencies surrounding them get along just fine. The units just switch over to the County mutual aide channel and everybody talks.

Generally they're providing coverage in the area or tanker shuttles so they're operating on a separate incident channel anyways.

Same with the P25 and Nexxedge police departments. They interoperate with their analog counterparts by using a common analog repeater.

Different frequency bands? Now that's a problem only solved by some sort of cross band setup.

As far as business vs public safety use, Moto states that TRBO is business critical not mission critical but they do say that it's fine for small public safety operations.

A lot of fire agencies in this area are using them in analog since they offer a lot of features that regular analog portables don't and they're cost effective.

At some point once all the user gear is swapped out and the repeater is swapped out, they'll just reprogram and go digital, likely with encryption.
 

Jay911

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It interoperates just fine with other agencies.

Most areas have set aside mutual aide frequencies that are analog and carrier squelch.

That, to me, is not TRBO being interoperable, that is conventional analog being interoperable.

For me, TRBO being interoperable would involve a TRBO user being able to communicate with another agency without having to go through a bridge or some other kind of translation. As TRBO is proprietary and non-Motorola (even Motorola non-TRBO) users cannot communicate with TRBO users, this is an electronic brick wall.

I guess we'll just have to disagree there.
 

JRayfield

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Most definitely there is an 'emergency button' on MOTOTRBO radios. In fact, the emergency capabilities of MOTOTRBO far exceed anything that has been available on conventional analog systems.

This idea that MOTOTRBO isn't 'interoperable' isn't completely true. MOTOTRBO radios can operate in analog or digital mode. And there are numerous ways to 'bridge' between MOTOTRBO systems and analog or P25 systems.

The fact is, P25 conventional and P25 trunking are NOT interoperable, either, without some kind of 'bridge' between the two systems. Yet, I never hear anyone complaining about these two systems not being 'interoperable'. Why is that?

John Rayfield, Jr. - CETma


First things first to me is the lack of interoperability with other agencies. I know it's a buzz word, but it's an important one to me. If my neighbor is using TRBO and I can't talk to him because I'm not, that's no good.

Second is the fact that it's not designed for public safety use. IIRC, there is no provision for an "emergency button" on a TRBO radio, or is there?
 

JRayfield

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MOTOTRBO conventional systems are NOT proprietary, no more so than Astro 25 systems. MOTOTRBO is based on the DMR open standard and there are other radios on the market that will communicate with MOTOTRBO radios (and more coming).

John Rayfield, Jr. - CETma

That, to me, is not TRBO being interoperable, that is conventional analog being interoperable.

For me, TRBO being interoperable would involve a TRBO user being able to communicate with another agency without having to go through a bridge or some other kind of translation. As TRBO is proprietary and non-Motorola (even Motorola non-TRBO) users cannot communicate with TRBO users, this is an electronic brick wall.

I guess we'll just have to disagree there.
 

JRayfield

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Good point. The MOTOTRBO radios make excellent 'analog only' radios. Great performance, water proof (submersible), and meets Mil Specs. Actually, the MOTOTRBO portables exceed the specs of an HT1250, of which there are many many thousands in use by public safety agenies all over the world.

John Rayfield, Jr. - CETma

Been using a TRBO portable at my EMS gig for over a year, Analog audio is superior to any other radio I've used, and that includes my XTS5000. TRBO is not "commercial grade" it's technically in Moto's "Expert" teir.
 

JRayfield

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Simply put, not true. Motorola themselves point out that MOTOTRBO radios are excellent for mission critical use. They meet all of the specs necessary for this type of use. Are they an XTS radio? No, but neither is an HT1250, and many many thousands of those radios are in use by public safety angencies, in mission critical applications, with an excellent track record of dependability. The MOTOTRBO portables meet or exceed the specs of the HT1250.

This idea, that MOTOTRBO is only meant for commercial/business use, is a favorite 'idea' promoted by Motorola competitors. And it's simply not true.

John Rayfield, Jr. - CETma

Bad idea. TRBO equipment is meant for commercial/business use. Not mission critical communications where the failure of a radio in a fire or a pursuit could result in the loss of life.
 

Jay911

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I didn't know if TRBO had an emergency feature, which is why I posed it as a question. Don't get your shorts in a knot over it.

As for interoperability, I can talk on my Smartzone system and on conventional on the same radio. If I want to talk to a TRBO user, I have to go buy a TRBO radio. That, to me, != interoperable. I don't care what anyone else says - by my definition of "interoperable", I should not have to carry 4 radios to talk to 4 different users. Nor should those users have to come off their system onto a conventional channel (as the people championing TRBO are advocating) in order to talk to me. Whether that's the "true" definition of interoperability or not is irrelevant in the field. If I can't talk to them, that makes it useless.

The same goes for iDEN or for wacky trunk systems like MPT1327. I've had to deal with all that kind of junk here, and the end result is the same: No one can talk to one another because everyone is on their own, incompatible system. You can put together a kludgey patch in the comms center all you like, as has been done for iDEN to SmartZone and iDEN to conventional, but it still doesn't work right, because the SZ or conventional user has no way of hearing the iDEN talk permit tone, and often gets cut off.

Going to a conventional channel for talking to other users completely defeats the purpose of paying top dollar for your shiny TRBO system.

As for TRBO being proprietary or not, what other manufacturers currently sell radios that can be used on a TRBO system? Is there a Kenwood TRBO radio? Icom? Bendix-King?

And for what it's worth, I am not a "Motorola competitor" in any way, shape, or form, or even supporter of a competitor. My personal radios include two XTS3000s and an MTS2000. My department's trucks are outfitted with Maxtracs and Radiuses, being traded for XTLs as fast as I can afford them. We have a handful of Kenwood TK series handhelds and portables, against my better judgment (and said misgivings were justified when the Kenwoods began locking up due to their own FleetSync signalling system screwing the radios up). Even when the new pure P25 system comes online in my area, which is promised to be "vendor agnostic" and allowing us to use any radio hardware we wish, I intend to stick with batwing equipment, because they make a better public safety radio than any other I've ever used.

Public safety is all about critical communications that must get through and must be able to be exchanged between multiple parties and agencies at any given moment. I can not and will not be convinced that MotoTRBO is a viable public safety solution unless every user that might be required to talk to public safety in the area is committing to use MotoTRBO.

Give me a common system on a common band any day of the week.
 
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JRayfield

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I guess I do tend to "get my shorts in a knot" when I keep seeing information passed around, as 'fact', that is inacurrate and not really based on 'facts' at all. (I actually do like that phrase <G>).

First, I do understand where you're coming from. If everyone is on a system where they can easily communicate with each other, without having to change over to different systems to do it, then that is 'ideal'.

There are systems now available that allow MOTOTRBO to be interfaced to analog systems at a 'system level', NOT using a 'console patch'. The user of one of the systems will never know that they aren't on each others' 'home' sysem, other than the slight difference in audio when taking analog into digital. Such systems can be bridged 'on command', or based on talkgroup ID and/or CTCSS tone. This same system can bridge between MOTOTRBO and/or analog and/or IDEN, as well, without the problems associated with a 'console patch'. Eventually, it's intended that this same system will be able to bridge into P25 systems at the system level, again eliminating the problems with 'console patches' into P25 systems at this time.

Currently, Hytera is selling a MOTOTRBO-compatible line of radios and repeaters. Soon (within a month), Vertex will also have a line of MOTOTRBO-compatible equipment. Tait is working on such a line (you can find it on their website). Interestingly, both Kenwood and ICOM are members of the DMR Association, although they haven't announced any plans to produce DMR-based products (yet).

Again, P25 conventional and P25 trunking systems are not 'interoperable', unless the two systems are bridged together in some way, or the trunking user switches to a conventional channel. So, I guess you would also consider P25 then to be 'non-interoperable'?

John Rayfield, Jr. - CETma



I didn't know if TRBO had an emergency feature, which is why I posed it as a question. Don't get your shorts in a knot over it.

As for interoperability, I can talk on my Smartzone system and on conventional on the same radio. If I want to talk to a TRBO user, I have to go buy a TRBO radio. That, to me, != interoperable. I don't care what anyone else says - by my definition of "interoperable", I should not have to carry 4 radios to talk to 4 different users. Nor should those users have to come off their system onto a conventional channel (as the people championing TRBO are advocating) in order to talk to me. Whether that's the "true" definition of interoperability or not is irrelevant in the field. If I can't talk to them, that makes it useless.

The same goes for iDEN or for wacky trunk systems like MPT1327. I've had to deal with all that kind of junk here, and the end result is the same: No one can talk to one another because everyone is on their own, incompatible system. You can put together a kludgey patch in the comms center all you like, as has been done for iDEN to SmartZone and iDEN to conventional, but it still doesn't work right, because the SZ or conventional user has no way of hearing the iDEN talk permit tone, and often gets cut off.

Going to a conventional channel for talking to other users completely defeats the purpose of paying top dollar for your shiny TRBO system.

As for TRBO being proprietary or not, what other manufacturers currently sell radios that can be used on a TRBO system? Is there a Kenwood TRBO radio? Icom? Bendix-King?

Public safety is all about critical communications that must get through and must be able to be exchanged between multiple parties and agencies at any given moment. I can not and will not be convinced that MotoTRBO is a viable public safety solution unless every user that might be required to talk to public safety in the area is committing to use MotoTRBO.

Give me a common system on a common band any day of the week.
 

Jay911

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Fair enough, there are multiple vendors for TRBO equipment, so I was mistaken.

I could come up with reasons for not wanting a TRBO system as my literal life-line for days, much as you, a retailer, could come up with reasons for wanting me to buy one for the same amount of time.

Are you insinuating that in the future, when I get a P25 trunk established in my area, I am not going to be able to have simplex frequencies - P25 or analog or otherwise - in the same radio, at all? I find that hard to believe. On the SZ system I use right now I can switch to a simplex channel for fireground ops if the trunk system won't reach the fireground (either due to penetration issues or being out of range). The same functionality better be available on the new P25 system.

You didn't address the following comment that was made above:

Besides that, the only proven pagers out there do not work in any of the trunked or digital worlds yet, in particular the Minitor V.

Tons of public safety agencies, especially rural departments, still use this type of paging for alerting their crews and their on-call staff. Are Steve and I both wrong in believing that there is no such thing as a TRBO pager?

(My department uses tone paging, which I am hoping to phase out when the P25 system comes up. I would prefer to use the P25 equivalent of Call Alert, but don't know if (a) I can afford a fleet of portables for all my membership or (2) if I can do group calls in certain dynamic ways that I'll need to.)

Besides all the above, the ultimate thing that public safety agencies should remember when trying to decide if TRBO is right for their life-safety communications is that the National Fire Protection Association - likely in standard #1221, though I don't have a copy to find an absolute reference right now - urges against digital or repeated comms for fireground ops. In the NFPA's opinion, digital/repeated comms such as TRBO, P25 talkgroups, etc., are too easy to become corrupt and lose signal in less-than-optimal conditions, and conventional analog simplex should be favored. When the chips are down (if you will excuse the cliché), I can understand "Fir..ight..r Jones cal..ng may..ay, I'm ..rapped in ... outhw..st ..orn..r of the bas..m..nt" a lot better than I can understand "Fir....(R2D2 noises)...." or "FirBRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPbzzzzzgngngngngngngnnnnn".
 

mikewazowski

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I didn't know if TRBO had an emergency feature, which is why I posed it as a question. Don't get your shorts in a knot over it.

As for interoperability, I can talk on my Smartzone system and on conventional on the same radio. If I want to talk to a TRBO user, I have to go buy a TRBO radio

Going to a conventional channel for talking to other users completely defeats the purpose of paying top dollar for your shiny TRBO system.

You've just made the case for TRBO by stating your Smartzone case.

Substitute TRBO for Smartzone and Smartzone for TRBO and it's the same.

Let me show you:

As for interoperability, I can talk on my TRBO system and on conventional on the same radio. If I want to talk to a Smsrtzone user, I have to go buy a Smartzone radio

Going to a conventional channel for talking to other users completely defeats the purpose of paying top dollar for your shiny Smartzone system.

TRBO radios are analog and digital plus they support a lot of APCO 16 features such as man down and ptt-id.

They'll even support mdc decode.

They offer a lot of bang for the buck and a lot of departments are replacing their old analog equipment with TRBO when it comes due.
 

mikewazowski

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Are you insinuating that in the future, when I get a P25 trunk established in my area, I am not going to be able to have simplex frequencies

Tons of public safety agencies, especially rural departments, still use this type of paging for alerting their crews and their on-call staff. Are Steve and I both wrong in believing that there is no such thing as a TRBO pager?

Same as your Smartzone system. All these radios offer analog, conventional frequencies.

Heck, even TRBO repeaters support analog.

I've got a P25 amateur repeater on the air which supports analog as well. I can easily flip between analog and digital on my radio to talk to either.

I believe the newer firmware on TRBO supports the old QuickCall format but if you want, you could do page through TRBO.

The only gotcha with TRBO paging is that every user requires a TRBO radio. There's no such thing as a TRBO pager (or Smartzone trunking pager or P25 pager).

The local P25 conventional department uses analog trunking call alerts for their station alerting system. Another P25 department on trunking uses call alerts over the trunking system.
 
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dcr_inc

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FYI.. Vertex is MOTOROLA OWNED... Now that ASTRO junk has been exposed and TRUE P25 is available, The bat has to make another distraction to survive.. If you can't beat em, change the rules.. GO MOTO !!
 

JRayfield

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Mike, MOTOTRBO actually includes most of the 'mandated' features in P25. In fact, MOTOTRBO conventional includes multisite roaming which is only a 'mandatory' feature in P25 trunking. The P25 conventional spec does not include any requirement for multisite roaming, which in my opinion, is a MAJOR oversight of P25.

I compared the 'mandated' features of P25 to MOTOTRBO and wrote up that comparison. Anyone who is really interesting in knowing how MOTOTRBO 'stacks up' to P25 might find it interesting - Rayfield Communications

John Rayfield, Jr. - CETma

You've just made the case for TRBO by stating your Smartzone case.

Substitute TRBO for Smartzone and Smartzone for TRBO and it's the same.

Let me show you:

As for interoperability, I can talk on my TRBO system and on conventional on the same radio. If I want to talk to a Smsrtzone user, I have to go buy a Smartzone radio

Going to a conventional channel for talking to other users completely defeats the purpose of paying top dollar for your shiny Smartzone system.

TRBO radios are analog and digital plus they support a lot of APCO 16 features such as man down and ptt-id.

They'll even support mdc decode.

They offer a lot of bang for the buck and a lot of departments are replacing their old analog equipment with TRBO when it comes due.
 

SQP

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Nice thread fellas, but where's my TRBO SCANNER!!!!!!!
 

JRayfield

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Yes, 80% of Vertex is owned by Motorola (the other 20% is still owned by the former owner).

Not sure what you mean by "that ASTRO junk". It meets all of the P25 specs and will talk to non-Motorola P25 radios. Yes, it includes some proprietary features, mostly involving encryption. But that doesn't affect it working with other P25 radios, as long as everyone is using the features/functions that are in the P25 specs.

It amazes me how people will make mention of something that supports their 'opinion', but they totally ignore anything that contradicts their opinion.

Such as the fact that Hytera and Tait are NOT owned by Motorola.

John Rayfield, Jr. - CETma

FYI.. Vertex is MOTOROLA OWNED... Now that ASTRO junk has been exposed and TRUE P25 is available, The bat has to make another distraction to survive.. If you can't beat em, change the rules.. GO MOTO !!
 
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