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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2012, 4:33 PM
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Default APX7000 Forced Narrowband?

Hello,

I am trying to figure out if I am going to buy an APX for ham use (as well as LMR) if I have to purchase it before Jan 1, 2013 to use 25 KHz bandwidth or is it already too late? I read in some other forums that it is the Q507 flash that forces narrowband and that if you do not have Q507 that you are fine. The FCC rules say that no 25 khz equipment in part 90 can ship in the US (or be imported) after the deadline. I also read in the Motorola catalog pages for the APX the following RED text:
"Special Note for United States - State & Local Markets only:
In accordance with the FCC mandate, the APX7000 UHF R1 & UHFR2 combination (QA00571 with QA00576 OR QA00572 with QA00575) dual band radio is restricted to NOT allow programming for 25 KHz operation. These frequencies are RESTRICTED to 12.5 KHz operation only."

Does anyone know if this includes, for example, if a VHF/UHFR1 APX7000 or would these bandsplits work on 25 KHz?

Thanks for any help.
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Old 08-11-2012, 8:32 PM
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We went back and forth on MTUG (Moto Trunked Users Group) and Moto advised that they were going to write into the firmware that Amateur, Marine & NOAA were going to remain 25KHz capable. Those frequencies in Part 90 were going to be restticted NB for those Type Accepted after the deadline.

You are correct about Q507. If the radio does not have it in the flash then it will not be locked to NB only even through CPS, or so they say. To date nothing has changed with the CPS to lock down the radios.
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Old 08-11-2012, 11:18 PM
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Thanks for the reply. Do you know how and when Q507 will be "forced"? I also am a little skeptical, if I understood you correctly, that Motorola would go to the trouble of separating out frequencies by type of operation and only forcing NB on some. Afterall, the device is a Part 90 marketed and approved radio.
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Old 08-12-2012, 1:14 AM
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I'm curious why you want an APX7000 for ham use. Not criticizing, just curious. I have a company issue APX, and I'm not really that impressed with it.
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Old 08-12-2012, 6:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrunkLatcher View Post
Thanks for the reply. Do you know how and when Q507 will be "forced"? I also am a little skeptical, if I understood you correctly, that Motorola would go to the trouble of separating out frequencies by type of operation and only forcing NB on some. Afterall, the device is a Part 90 marketed and approved radio.
Motorola would not be able to force Q507 into the radios without actually flashing them. They could try to restrict it in the CPS, but not sure if they will do that of not.
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:34 PM
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Gary,

One of our local guys has a new UHF TRBO XPR7550 that will NOT do wideband until/unless a CPS "fix" is obtained from Motorola, so it is possible, and they are doing it, at least on that line of radios. My APX has the 2.5 and 5.0 deviation options available and was built that way.

Regards,
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:45 PM
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The other question of course - what happens if an agency that ISN'T forced to Narrow Band wants to use and APX? Such as in Canada. There's no way Motorola is going to hard-code narrow band into these radios.
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Old 08-12-2012, 1:07 PM
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The XPR series that are now wideband restricted can be bypassed with a entitlement id from Motorola.

You need to contact Motorola to start the process to get one. It's really not that hard.
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Old 08-12-2012, 1:30 PM
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Remember also that the FCC waived the narrowbanding requirement for T-Band 470-512 in April, which means 25 kHz operation is still permissible within that band. So it's not just ham, marine, NOAA, etc. they have to exclude from the narrowband restriction.
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Old 08-12-2012, 2:32 PM
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I might be misunderstanding the rules, but I interpreted the FCC rules that no radios even capable of 25 KHz operation can be sold (unless the band is exempt). I guess that if the radio has the UHF T band (470-520) and ALSO VHF than the whole radio can be wideband capable in all bands? Can someone enlighten me as to whether a radio that has an "exempt" band as well as a NB only band mixed in one radio can to wideband in ALL bands? Also, the catalog excerpt that I posted in the OP is confusing. Can anyone explain that excerpt?
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Old 08-12-2012, 2:57 PM
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In the case of the XPR, you sign a waiver stating you will only use WB where is allowed to be used, & not where NB is required. I guess we'll have to wait & see if this is done on M's other products. GARY N4KVE
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Old 08-12-2012, 6:40 PM
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Ok, since its getting a little out of hand...

As far as it stands now, as KV stated, the non-mandated Part90 stuff will stay wideband. It falls within the part 90 juristriction for all the type acceptance etc.

The CPS and firmware has supported the 12.5 only option for awhile, so in any case, you should be fine.

BTW, the VHF/UHFR1 I have works ham just nicely with FPP. Best audio people here have heard in a long time.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:15 AM
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Thanks for the clarification. People seem to talk about the MotoTrbo series when I asked specifically about the APX7000. Did you mean 25 KHz instead of 12.5? Also, which FPP option were you referring to? Q52 or Q53?
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrunkLatcher View Post
Thanks for the clarification. People seem to talk about the MotoTrbo series when I asked specifically about the APX7000.
People are trying to help you. In the case of the [403-470] XPR7550, which is a brand new Trbo radio Motorola is starting to sell, it is compliant with the new narrow band rules, & from the factory, will only work as a narrow band radio. Should you be a ham, or need to legally use the radio in the wideband mode, you can get an entitlement where you sign a waiver, & Motorola will e-mail you software to be able to use the radio in the wideband mode where it is legal to do so. Of course you need to have legit CPS Trbo software. In the case of the APX7000, it has been out for a few years already, so all the discussion is speculation as to what will happen with narrow banding. Newer firmware will probably render earlier APX radios narrow band only. So like in geometry, people are speculating that if newer firmware renders the APX radio narrow band only, then Motorola could also issue an entitlement [like they do on the XPR7550] to allow a narrow band only APX7000 to use wideband where it is legally allowed. I hope I've explained this correctly. GARY N4KVE
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:29 AM
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Gary-

This issue in the thread is that everyone jumped on the TRBO bandwagon, which is a different product group and what many more people might know here on RR vs BL. Plus typing on the iPhone earlier doesn't help get the message across

The APX platform already supports the narrowbanding mandate in the software and firmware. For the APX (thus far) is REQUIRES the narrowbanding flash to for the 12.5 dev. Last I saw, all APX radios delivered and/or sold after Jan 1 will have that flash option in the radio to be compliant - however as previously stated the weather, ham and maritime ranges will not be affected.

The TRBOs are a little different as they are marketed to business who typically do not update radios or "in the loop" as much as public safety. They are essentially getting a jump start. You can only get an entitlement from Moto for wideband programming as long as you have an active software subscription, and even then its only one per computer IIRC.

From the CPS help file for APX:

Quote:
FCC Narrowbanding Requirement
(Glossary)

All Federal Communications Commission (FCC) compliant land mobile radios operating in VHF and UHF FCC Part 90 Frequencies must eventually operate in 12.5 kHz efficiency or better; the 25 kHz efficiency is being phased-out.

All radio codeplugs that are subject to this requirement are identifiable by a "Q507/G507 - 12.5 kHz FCC Mandate" option in the codeplug's Purchased Feature Name list.

Cloning a target radio which has the "Q507/G507 - 12.5 kHz FCC Mandate" option from a source radio or codeplug that does not have this option holds certain restrictions. See the Cloning Warnings.

The impacted FCC Part 90 Frequency ranges are:

VHF: 150-174 MHz (excluding the Part 80 Marine frequencies)
UHF1 / UHF2: 421-512 MHz

For Conventional Systems:

The CPS allows only 12.5 kHz operation for radio codeplugs that are subject to the FCC Narrowbanding Requirement. The CPS allows 25 kHz operation on frequencies that are not in the FCC Part 90 Frequency ranges. (See the Tx Deviation / Channel Spacing field)

For Trunked systems:

On Trunked Type II systems, the CPS allows only 12.5 kHz operation on OBT channels for radio codeplugs that are subject to the FCC Narrowbanding Requirement. (See the Channel Bandwidth field)
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:44 AM
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That clears things up except for an explanation as to what that excerpt from the catalog in the OP says about a UHFR1/UHFR2. I appreciate everyone's help and if someone knows the answer to this it would be very helpful.

Also, I think my biggest problem will be Q52. I really don't want a 124ABC1234 hackjob however I really need Q52. Does someone have a picture of the dongle for Q53? Maybe its not as bad as I thought. Thanks again.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:53 AM
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You can't put together an APX with aftermarket parts

I've yet to see an APX 123ABC radio perform any different than a serialized radio - as long as it was bench tested/aligned properly.

For the record, many NYPD SSE5000's have 123ABC serial numbers direct from the factory
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Old 08-13-2012, 7:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrunkLatcher View Post
That clears things up except for an explanation as to what that excerpt from the catalog in the OP says about a UHFR1/UHFR2. I appreciate everyone's help and if someone knows the answer to this it would be very helpful.

Also, I think my biggest problem will be Q52. I really don't want a 124ABC1234 hackjob however I really need Q52. Does someone have a picture of the dongle for Q53? Maybe its not as bad as I thought. Thanks again.
The issue with the UHF R1+R2 APX is that it was type accepted after the narrowband type acceptance deadline, so it can't be sold w/ wideband capability right now. The VHF+R1 APX was type accepted before the deadline, so it does not need to be narrow-band only (right now). I just took delivery from moto on one, in fact - it does wideband just fine. Radios delivered after Jan 1 may be a different story, of course.

The Q53 dongle isn't so bad. It basically looks like the connector from the programming cable, but without the cable. The irritating thing about it is that you can't FPP when a headset or speaker mic is connected.
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Old 08-13-2012, 9:06 PM
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Does anyone know if Motorola will unblock the FCC mandated 12.5khz mandate on T-Band channels on the APX. Seems to me if you buy one and don't plan on narrowbanding your system you're out of luck...
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Old 08-13-2012, 9:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmonty83 View Post
Does anyone know if Motorola will unblock the FCC mandated 12.5khz mandate on T-Band channels on the APX. Seems to me if you buy one and don't plan on narrowbanding your system you're out of luck...
Good question. I'm not actually sure what the FCC rule on the T-band waiver is. In scanning the waiver order, it's clear that T-band systems don't have to go narrow, but it isn't clear that the waiver applies to equipment sold after January 1. It would certainly be odd if systems were allowed to stay wideband but new equipment wasn't permitted, but I can't find any language in the waiver order about this. (Perhaps it's in there but I missed it; I just scanned the order).
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