Digital Pagers for volunteer Fire/EMS?

[rgur]

Some background.
Our town is getting a new Motorola Radio Communication System (simulcast).

To achieve the 95% Analog coverage goal, 2 new towers are planned in less than ideal locations. We could achive the 95% digital coverage goal with a different tower configuration that has less impact.

The need for the Analog support is driven by volunteer Fire/EMS pagers.

Question
Are there options (Digital pager, or another type of public-safety notification system) that would work with our digital system?

It appears that this pager supports digital (and it appears to be used by Fire/EMS):
Motorola Advisor+II

Thanks

[rdale]

1) If it is a trunked system, then your pager won't work.

2) See #1

[RBMTS]

An option would be to go with an 1-way analog backbone transmitter on an older VHF or UHF frequency that your town/county might have (still licensed for) that isn't being used. When a fire dispatch is made on the digital system, you could have the the computer system process a routine to have the tones sent over the separate analog transmitter and then have dispatch audio sent through as well. Therefore the FF's can receive the call via traditional pagers and be able to respond accordingly on the digital system as needed.

[rgur]

Originally Posted by rdale

1) If it is a trunked system, then your pager won't work.

2) See #1

I have a novice question -- hopefully it makes some sense.

I take it that the digital pagers can only receive on one frequency.

Any chance to either:
1) Always have the trunked system use one digital frequency when sending to the pagers? (But, allow the system to still use that frequency for non-pager communications as well. Would the pagers not be able to deal with the non-pager communications that were sent on that frequency?)
2) Pick up a new dedicated digital frequency for pagers that is separate from the set the trunked system uses?

[Thunderknight]

First of all, digital does not have to mean trunked. You could have digital conventional operation. (rdale's post seems to imply they are the same thing).

Second, all traditional tone and voice pagers (e.g. Minitors) I am aware of are for analog transmissions (not P25, MotoTRBO, etc).

Third, the Advisor pager mentioned in the first is for a different type of digital - digital paging data.

You have 2 good options if your voice system will be digital (trunked or not). Those are:
1) Maintain a seperate analog paging frequency for tone and voice paging (RBMTS's solution). This is a very common solution and if your dispatch center uses consoles, that is usually just a paging sequence programming (which channels/sites the various tones and voice go to).

2) Maintain a seperate digital data paging frequency for data based (text) paging. Then would use a pager like the Advisor. You would only get text pages, either manually or from a direct integration to the dispatch center's CAD system.

or 3) (NOT recommended) - use a commerical paging service or SMS texts for your paging needs.

Note that the coverage specifications and design for paging may not be the same as voice communciations. The designed signal level is usually different. Your vendor should run each of the voice (analog and digital) siting options for the paging coverage those sites would provide as well.

[rdale]

Originally Posted by Thunderknight

(rdale's post seems to imply they are the same thing).

Nope - no implications. He said it was a simulcast "system", and if you read my first line again the word "trunked" is clearly spelled out

[RBMTS]

We'd really need to know more about the digital trunked system that will be going in before jumping to conclusions.

RGUR - do you know if this will be a 700/800Mhz digital system? If so, then the above suggestions will hold true. Is your town is building out a new system, or whether they are joining an existing system (with infrastructure being expanded to cover your geographic area)? Do you know if they intend to be on 700/800Mhz, UHF, or VHF? If UHF or VHF, it would be technically possible to add a non-trunking channel for analog simulcast dispatches with tone paging or Pocsag alpha-numeric pages (digital pages). You could be located in W.Virginia and joining the statewide UHF trunking system there. So we'd need to really know more.

There is currently no pager that will work in the 700/800Mhz range. Some of the carrier pagers (alphanumeric pagers) operated in the 900Mhz range, so those will not work for you (plus that is a dying market). As mentioned, there is certainly no pager that will work with a P25 trunking system.

There is another possibility to think of. A trunking system will allow a dispatcher to send a page to a radio ID that can "alert" the radio. This could be done with portables assigned to FF's. However portables would not be as convenient to carry as pagers, and the alert probably would not be as loud. I'm just throwing the concept out there.

So if you can, please share with us more about the system your town is building or joining and perhaps we can help you further.

[tech020]

This has been a problem since trunked systems came into use in the 1980's. The vendors sell a fancy system based on "spectrum efficiency" of trunking but neglect to mention the fire paging issue. Volunteer fire folks are really glued to their pagers because of size, battery life and ability to monitor calls while enroute to the fire or station. Portable 2-way radios stay in chargers in the trucks or station until needed. A similar situation exists with outdoor siren alerting systems. While they can be done with a trunked system, it's usually simpler to put them on dedicated channels or on the fire paging system. So much for spectrum efficiency.

[rgur]

Appreciate all the excellent feedback. Here is some information that I do know (I don't have ready access to more detailed information, but I can look to find out more):
- It is an all new system (existing system is very old).
- Located in CT (towns do independent systems here).
- It appears to be a UHF ASTRO Conventional Radio system (that is what coverage tests are for, and it says that is for the "system being proposed").

As far as making use of an Analog frequency to support the pagers -- that is actually what is being planned. However, for our town, to get the desired 95% coverage to support Analog/pagers, we'll need to put a tower in the middle of a neighborhood. Highly desirable to avoid that.
So looking for the possiblity to go all Digital, but support pagers (or go with some other proven notification system for volunteer Fire/EMS).

Thanks.

[Thunderknight]

Are those coverage plots specifically for paging, or are you inferring pager coverage from the voice plots?

[dixie729]

Will a minitor pager or any pager do the 6.25khz?

Kevin Absher - HTC Inspire 4G

[RodStrong]

You can call alert an 800 radio and via a connect box it can put the tones out on VHF to bang pagers or portables.

[rgur]

Originally Posted by Thunderknight

Are those coverage plots specifically for paging, or are you inferring pager coverage from the voice plots?

The analog coverage maps indicate (on hip, speaker-mic) portable roundtrip, so it appears the pager coverage is being inferred from voice.

[cg]

The Advisor is a text message type pager. Completely different from a voice pager. A voice pager usually allows volunteer responders to monitor the incident while enroute to the station.

DVSI, the maker of the P25 vocoders indicates digital vs analog coverage is at best equal when comparing identical systems. Eliminating the tower you don't want will degrade a digital signal as well as an analog. Redesigning the system regarding tower location would change digital and analog equally.

chris

[mdulrich]

Originally Posted by rgur

The analog coverage maps indicate (on hip, speaker-mic) portable roundtrip, so it appears the pager coverage is being inferred from voice.

The weakest link in a radio system is going to be the portables getting back into the system. The reception of the system on the portables is going to be better. You shouldn't need as robust of a system to hit the pagers. You may very well get by with one tower for the pagers.

Mike

[rgur]

Originally Posted by mdulrich

The weakest link in a radio system is going to be the portables getting back into the system. The reception of the system on the portables is going to be better. You shouldn't need as robust of a system to hit the pagers. You may very well get by with one tower for the pagers.

Mike

Originally Posted by cg

The Advisor is a text message type pager. Completely different from a voice pager. A voice pager usually allows volunteer responders to monitor the incident while enroute to the station.

DVSI, the maker of the P25 vocoders indicates digital vs analog coverage is at best equal when comparing identical systems. Eliminating the tower you don't want will degrade a digital signal as well as an analog. Redesigning the system regarding tower location would change digital and analog equally.

chris

Makes sense -- the Analog receive-only pager should be comparable coverage-wise to the Digital receive-send portable.

Thanks all!

[iepoker]

Analog has better range than digital, so saying analog would require towers that the digital wouldn't makes no sense to this guy.

My area is going to a new system. We were 800 trunked, with 1 TX/RX site and an additional RX site for coverage. The new 700 dig system will require 3 TX sites and 5 RX locations... same coverage area.

Just sayin...

[rgur]

Originally Posted by iepoker

Analog has better range than digital, so saying analog would require towers that the digital wouldn't makes no sense to this guy.

My area is going to a new system. We were 800 trunked, with 1 TX/RX site and an additional RX site for coverage. The new 700 dig system will require 3 TX sites and 5 RX locations... same coverage area.

Just sayin...

Could the fact that the Digital system is Simulcast make a difference? (Does Simulcast help improve the portable send coverage?)

[iepoker]

Ultimately, when it comes to portable coverage, receivers in the right places make all the difference in the world.

Pagers are VERY sensitive. I concur with the previous poster that you could probably easily cover your entire desired area... and then some, with a strong transmitter on the right tower/mountain top/building.

I have received pages from a VHF transmitter 100 miles away one time. MInitors are VERY sensitive.

[rgur]

Originally Posted by iepoker

Ultimately, when it comes to portable coverage, receivers in the right places make all the difference in the world.

Pagers are VERY sensitive. I concur with the previous poster that you could probably easily cover your entire desired area... and then some, with a strong transmitter on the right tower/mountain top/building.

I have received pages from a VHF transmitter 100 miles away one time. MInitors are VERY sensitive.

Based on all feedback, here is my takeaway:
- Analog receive can (at best) be comparable to Digital receive. Simulcast (if digital only) would give Digital an advantage in the case of receive.
- Because portable send/talk-back is the weakest link (our system will be 5W transmit): Analog receive for good quality pagers (Motorola Minitor) should outperform Digital portable send/talk-back.

Sound accurate?