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Old 09-24-2013, 8:19 PM
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Default APX7000 P25 Phase II Monitor

Hi, question for any knowledgeables out there

I am trying to set up a no-transmit no-affiliation setup to monitor a P25 Phase II system to which I do not have WACNK/ASK access. I have successfully followed P25.ca's guide to do this for Phase I systems neighboring/overlapping the system and area I operate in, so it does in principle work.

With Phase II TDMA systems, the APX will scan-stop on the appropriate talkgroup object when that talkgroup is active on the system, so it appears to know that a channel grant has been assigned for that talkgroup. However, the APX will only give a slight speaker pop when it locks on, and will not output received audio (if it indeed does receive it) to the speaker.

System is set as follows: coverage type disabled (only one site loaded)
WACN ID set,
no system ID set (no ASK/WACNK access)
no RFSS/site IDs set
Control channels for that site only entered
700mhz FDMA (6.25kHz) and TDMA (12.5kHz) +30 split 'channel ID's entered, plus 800mhz FDMA -45 split 6.25kHz.
NOT set as X2 voice capable (full Phase II system)
Set as Phase 2 voice capable.
Modulation set to C4FM (tried CQPSK also for the hell of it)

Is there anyone who can aid me in debugging why it will not break squelch / output voice for TDMA transmissions when it will correctly do so for FDMA systems? Barring that, is there anyone who has a successful codeplug for Phase II TDMA monitoring that I can receive and browse through for info? Please ask here or PM if you need further codeplug info.

BTW, the radio IS flashed QA00580 for TDMA ops, as well as H38 Smartzone, Q806 ASTRO digital, Q173 Omnilink, Q361 P25 9600baud, and the ones necessary for 700/800 operation.
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Last edited by dpcain; 09-24-2013 at 8:23 PM..
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Old 09-24-2013, 8:24 PM
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Have you set the channel plan correctly with the right base/step? Are they in the right astro channel list number?
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Old 09-24-2013, 8:57 PM
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Default APX7000 P25 Phase II Monitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpcain View Post
no system ID set (no ASK/WACNK access)
No System ID? You'll need to enter a System ID.

Quote:
700mhz FDMA (6.25kHz) and TDMA (12.5kHz) +30 split 'channel ID's entered, plus 800mhz FDMA -45 split 6.25kHz
Are you sure you entered the Channel ID's in the correct positions? Have you verified the Channel ID setup with some sort of utility or a scanner that you can view the Channel ID's on?

Have you made sure that Validate NAC Against System ID is off?
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Old 10-01-2013, 1:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeOxlong View Post
No System ID? You'll need to enter a System ID.
Despite the fact that I don't need to for Phase I systems? (and can't on Motorola CPS software without a valid ASK)

Quote:
Are you sure you entered the Channel ID's in the correct positions? Have you verified the Channel ID setup with some sort of utility or a scanner that you can view the Channel ID's on?
Yes, via UT, and did initially enter them in the order listed by UT. However, I don't know if M will only take Channel IDs in a certain order (other than the order UT gave) and have not located any documentation specifying such order.

Quote:
Have you made sure that Validate NAC Against System ID is off?
Quite sure.

Thanks for the help by the way. CPS is a bit of a bear sometimes.
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Old 10-01-2013, 2:08 PM
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Try www.p25.ca They are very helpful on this type of subject
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Old 10-01-2013, 4:43 PM
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Default APX7000 P25 Phase II Monitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpcain View Post
Despite the fact that I don't need to for Phase I systems? (and can't on Motorola CPS software without a valid ASK)
Yes, you need a System ID for any trunking system and no, you don't need an ASK. You can use a regular software system key if you have the appropriate flash on an APX. In fact, the only difference between a Phase I and a Phase II system is the checkbox which says Phase 2 Voice Capable and the ASTRO25 Channel ID ranges which are marked as TDMA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpcain View Post
Yes, via UT, and did initially enter them in the order listed by UT. However, I don't know if M will only take Channel IDs in a certain order (other than the order UT gave) and have not located any documentation specifying such order
Yes, you must put them in the same order that Unitrunker shows them in and in the same slot that Unitrunker shows them in.
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:16 PM
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The APX I've been given does not have legacy keys enabled in the flash, and I just have the ASK for my primary system.

The thing that's confusing me is this:

I have been perfectly able to monitor and receive-only via the no-affiliation method on p25.ca for P25 Phase I FDMA systems by simply setting the coverage type to Disabled and not worrying about site differentiation.
However, when I turn around and do the same thing for Phase II TDMA, this doesn't work. Perhaps I'm just ballsing something up in entering the 700 mHz/TDMA Channel IDs, because if everything's the same except the Phase 2 checkbox and the Channel IDs, then that's the odd man out. I'll fiddle some more and make sure I've got it sorted.
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Old 10-02-2013, 6:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpcain View Post
The APX I've been given does not have legacy keys enabled in the flash, and I just have the ASK for my primary system.

The thing that's confusing me is this:

I have been perfectly able to monitor and receive-only via the no-affiliation method on p25.ca for P25 Phase I FDMA systems by simply setting the coverage type to Disabled and not worrying about site differentiation.
However, when I turn around and do the same thing for Phase II TDMA, this doesn't work. Perhaps I'm just ballsing something up in entering the 700 mHz/TDMA Channel IDs, because if everything's the same except the Phase 2 checkbox and the Channel IDs, then that's the odd man out. I'll fiddle some more and make sure I've got it sorted.
The one thing you want to make sure of when using the hidden talkgroup method when using the APX 7000, go to trunking system, under ASTRO 25 category make sure the "Validate NAC against system ID" is NOT checked, the default is checked. If checked the radio will try to affiliate even using the hidden talkgroup method and disabling TX. You can check by when the radio hits the talkgroup that you don't see the double red arrows blink, if they blink it is transmitting
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Old 10-02-2013, 7:06 AM
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As mentioned in my first post, I'm already following the guide on p25.ca.

As mentioned in my first reply, the NAC-validation box isn't checked, and I'm quite sure of that.
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Old 10-02-2013, 1:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpcain View Post
As mentioned in my first post, I'm already following the guide on p25.ca.

As mentioned in my first reply, the NAC-validation box isn't checked, and I'm quite sure of that.
I have programed about 25 APX 7000s with hidden talkgroups and have always used the Legacy System Key flash, even if you have the ASK, it has to match exactly the system you are trying to enable, just trying to help you out.
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Old 10-02-2013, 2:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davo51 View Post
The one thing you want to make sure of when using the hidden talkgroup method when using the APX 7000, go to trunking system, under ASTRO 25 category make sure the "Validate NAC against system ID" is NOT checked, the default is checked. If checked the radio will try to affiliate even using the hidden talkgroup method and disabling TX. You can check by when the radio hits the talkgroup that you don't see the double red arrows blink, if they blink it is transmitting
Not true. I just tried it on my APX on two different P25 systems and my radio did not try to affiliate at all.

If your radio is transmitting, you've got something else wrong.

Validate NAC against System ID only validates that the radio has found the correct control channel when checked. It does not force the radio to affiliate at all.
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Old 10-02-2013, 3:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOxlong View Post
Not true. I just tried it on my APX on two different P25 systems and my radio did not try to affiliate at all.

If your radio is transmitting, you've got something else wrong.

Validate NAC against System ID only validates that the radio has found the correct control channel when checked. It does not force the radio to affiliate at all.
If it works for you, good, but my radio transmits very quickly if it is checked, also, if your radio does not unmute, use base channels 851.00625 and 762.00625, yes, there is an extra 0 that is not normally used, also, I only use 6.25 channel spacing.....Again, this is how I get radios to work on P25 when others can't, there may be other things not set right, but these two (2) things clear up a lot of issues. Again whatever works for you great, if you still have problems, PM me and I can probably get you fixed.
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Old 10-02-2013, 3:26 PM
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Default APX7000 P25 Phase II Monitor

My radios work fine using the instructions from p25.ca. Doesn't matter if I have the NAC validation box checked it not.
Thanks for the offer of help but I'm not having any problems.
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Old 10-02-2013, 6:33 PM
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Gotta say this is the first time I have seen someone offer
to help MikeOxlong
Apparently he does not know you very well
Kind of like someone offering to teach Stephen Hawking about the Universe.
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Old 10-02-2013, 6:36 PM
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Haha. Pretty funny.

I'd even give those frequencies a try if I was having problems but I don't think my v/u1 would like them.
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Old 10-02-2013, 11:30 PM
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Tell ya what.. if someone who stumbles across this thread happens to have a functioning no-affiliate-scan Phase II codeplug, I'd appreciate a PM from them. Save that, I think I've tried every combination of ideas possible short of a reflash for Legacy Keys (which is not something my overhead is willing to get done).
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Old 10-02-2013, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpcain View Post
Tell ya what.. if someone who stumbles across this thread happens to have a functioning no-affiliate-scan Phase II codeplug, I'd appreciate a PM from them. Save that, I think I've tried every combination of ideas possible short of a reflash for Legacy Keys (which is not something my overhead is willing to get done).
Good Luck with the Phase II setup. I have not heard of anyone able to do the hidden talkgroup method with Phase II yet. I would also checkout P25.ca but tread lightly there. They might be a little harsh with you but its worth a try. I have two APX 7000 radios and use the hidden talkgroup method with a Type II system mixed analog and digital and have it dialed in. Both of my radios has the legacy software key flashed into my radio. If not then this method does not work period. Sorry to say. The hidden talkgroup method is the safest method to use and you need to be-able to access the trunking system setup in the CPS APX software. I would just get it flashed.
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Old 10-03-2013, 6:02 AM
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Default APX7000 P25 Phase II Monitor

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Originally Posted by pepsima1 View Post
Good Luck with the Phase II setup. I have not heard of anyone able to do the hidden talkgroup method with Phase II yet.
Works fine on my APX.
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Old 10-03-2013, 6:23 AM
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Quote:
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Works fine on my APX.
Mine, too, I have several Phase II systems both 800 and 700 programmed in APXs
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Old 02-13-2014, 6:21 AM
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Quote:
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Works fine on my APX.
Mike, sorry for necromancing this thread but I'm still having issues- is there any chance I can get a look-see at a working Phase II codeplug from you for reference? the P25.ca guys are trying to help too, but it's being all sorts of stubborn. Thank you.
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