MOTOTRBO / DMR: Privacy from competitors listening?

[Stringer619]

I need a way to for my small company to communicate with each other via radio. Due to the nature of my company, I can not have competition listening in on our communications. Upfront cost of radios (2 or 3) and DMR carrier coverage is not a concern to me.

Is MOTOTRBO / DMR what I am looking for? Is it literally impossible for someone to monitor our communications? It's my understanding that police scanners can not monitor these systems, but if someone had the proper know-how, time, equipment (e.g. MOTOTRBO/DMR radio) and money, would it be possible to listen to such a system?

Am I correct that they MUST have the frequency, timeslot, group code AND color code, otherwise they can't listen? I assume there must be a tremendous amount of combinations, making it (practically) impossible.

Are there any additional options/encryption available? Privacy is my number one concern.

I'm considering the following radios, although I'm very new in my research (but strongly prefer Motorola brand):

Motorola XPR6550 (VHF/UHF)
Motorola XPR6580 (800/900MHz)

 

[SCPD]

As far as what you need, that is ultimately going to be your choice. Now encryption is NEVER impossible to break, only hard (and extremely hard). The type of security you talked about is security through obscenity. That is a false sense of security. Mototrbo has an encryption option which makes it extremely hard for someone to listen in even with the correct frequency, timeslot, and codes.

 

[Stringer619]

Are there any better radio/radio system options, or is MOTOTRBO / DMR the best option commercially available?

It sounds to me like it's [practically] impossible to monitor a MOTOTRBO / DMR system, without the freq/timeslot/group code/color code and that the only way to do it would be to either obtain the information through me, my radios or the carrier, or guess it.

 

[Voyager]

Getting the "frequency, timeslot, group code AND color code" is trivial.

If you really want to be secure, and have only 2 or 3 users, I would just stick with Cellular. you may even be able to get a smartphone app that lets multiple people talk with each other.

Voice quality really goes downhill the more encryption you add to a DMR radio, and the Basic Privacy isn't that hard to thwart, so you would want advanced privacy if going that route.

 

[Voyager]

The type of security you talked about is security through obscenity.

I think you meant obscurity???

 

[SCPD]

The best is apples and oranges. There is also the P25 route but then you start talking about money $$$.

 

[Voyager]

It sounds to me like it's [practically] impossible to monitor a MOTOTRBO / DMR system, without the freq/timeslot/group code/color code and that the only way to do it would be to either obtain the information through me, my radios or the carrier, or guess it.

Or use software that is publicly available and will show all those except frequency. This will happen within milliseconds of transmitting.

 

[SCPD]

I think you meant obscurity???

Hah yes I missed that one. I corrected a few other mistakes. The joys of typing on a phone [emoji1]

 

[Stringer619]

Or use software that is publicly available and will show all those except frequency. This will happen within milliseconds of transmitting.

So using said software, and then a scanner in close-call mode within 20 feet from one of my employees transmitting (to get the freq), would give a competitor everything they need to monitor our communications?

That sounds horrendously insecure. And our competitors are savvy enough to do that.

 

[Voyager]

It's not quite that simple, as DMR portables and mobiles generally cannot be captured on Close Call since they only transmit half the time. But, you can be seen on a spectrum analyzer using one of the cheap ($15) SDR dongles. It is possible with a strong enough signal that Close Call might be able to snag a frequency, but it's not easy (I've tested this myself using DMR radios and a Close Call scanner). Generally, Close Call will not work on simplex or when portables or mobiles are transmitting. It will work on a repeater, so if you have a DMR repeater that can be captured via Close Call.

Of course, if you are renting space on a DMR repeater or network, there are likely those who will monitor it and will be able to see your TG/Timeslot/CC and will work to identify who you are. If your competition sees you are using DMR equipment, they may well monitor the DMR systems in your area to find you.

As I suggested, Cellular may be the most secure means you have today with encrypted P25 being a distant second.

I take it from your alias that you work for a photography service or directly for a news agency...
(never mind - I just read your footer.)

 

[Thunderknight]

As I suggested, Cellular may be the most secure means you have today with encrypted P25 being a distant second.

Actually, I would argue that P25 with AES256 encryption is far more secure than off the shelf cellular. Assuming you do your own keyloading, the only person who knows that key is you. Keep the keyloader in a safe in your office. With cellular, there is a whole infrastructure you don't control.

For cellular, there are cell phones devices (both complete and as add-on hardware I believe) that adds an additional layer of security to your voice traffic.

Back to the OP's question - I'm not a DMR expert, but I do believe MotoTRBO offers 40-bit encryption. (called Enhanced Privacy). 40 bit is not cryptographically strong - but it's certainly stronger than a "casual monitoring" level.

 

[mikewazowski]

DMR is your best bet.

Take a look at Hytera with AES encryption. That will keep the eavesdroppers out.

 

[cmjonesinc]

I know there's nothing like having a radio and phones aren't always the best option but if you need to cover a large area and have secure (as secure and cellular can be) communications a lot of the PTT apps work well. I'm a fireman and I use zello a lot for just general chit chat we don't want to use our radios for. I know its not really good for "mission critical" comms but it does work nicely for other things. You can create a channel for multiple users and put a passcode on it. Best of all it's free and a lot less of a headache than getting radios/licensing set up.

 

[Voyager]

Back to the OP's question - I'm not a DMR expert, but I do believe MotoTRBO offers 40-bit encryption. (called Enhanced Privacy). 40 bit is not cryptographically strong - but it's certainly stronger than a "casual monitoring" level.

True, but with each increased level of privacy the audio quality goes downhill.

 

[1268]

Are there any better radio/radio system options, or is MOTOTRBO / DMR the best option commercially available?

It sounds to me like it's [practically] impossible to monitor a MOTOTRBO / DMR system, without the freq/timeslot/group code/color code and that the only way to do it would be to either obtain the information through me, my radios or the carrier, or guess it.

Kenwood nexedge is an option which also can be encrypted and some find it more cost effective. There is no such thing as a 100% can never ever be monitored radio system in reality but Mototrbo or nexedge fit what you are talking about.

Someone would need to go to the extreme once those systems are encrypted to hear your communications. Two cents.

PS use both so pm if you want more info off the grid.

 

[phask]

First thing - you need to advise what type of comm? Close range, a city, county?

Anything other than close range will either require a rather large expense, or you will use someone else's system.

If you need to license, purchase, install and maintain a tower and equipment that uses encryption - I think you will find it's beyond any small biz.

For close range simplex it's easier.

Honestly in today's world, either find some one with a commercial system that you can encrypt TO the repeater, or go cellular based.

I need a way to for my small company to communicate with each other via radio. Due to the nature of my company, I can not have competition listening in on our communications. Upfront cost of radios (2 or 3) and DMR carrier coverage is not a concern to me.

Is MOTOTRBO / DMR what I am looking for? Is it literally impossible for someone to monitor our communications? It's my understanding that police scanners can not monitor these systems, but if someone had the proper know-how, time, equipment (e.g. MOTOTRBO/DMR radio) and money, would it be possible to listen to such a system?

Am I correct that they MUST have the frequency, timeslot, group code AND color code, otherwise they can't listen? I assume there must be a tremendous amount of combinations, making it (practically) impossible.

Are there any additional options/encryption available? Privacy is my number one concern.

I'm considering the following radios, although I'm very new in my research (but strongly prefer Motorola brand):

Motorola XPR6550 (VHF/UHF)
Motorola XPR6580 (800/900MHz)

 

[phask]

Dupe post -

 

[Stringer619]

Quite a few replies, I'll try to respond to them all. I am loving the feedback/ideas!

We are considering Fisher Wireless's TeamTalk service, which offers MOTOTRBO/DMR airtime for about $30 a month per radio and covers California, Nevada and Arizona (all we need is San Diego county). I'm unsure what else they offer, but am still looking in to that.

We currently use the Zello app, which works "ok" but sometimes goes down, but a real radio on your hip is much more convenient, louder, has more accessories, more rugged, works with our other Motorola radio chargers/programming equipment (scan only mode). My number one complaint with using Zello is volume control and cellphone battery life. We go from noisy to dead-silent environments, and those quiet environments often mean WE need to be dead silent too, so as to not interfere with law enforcement, whom we work basically shoulder-to-shoulder with. We just don't have the time to go in to the menu and play around with volume controls.

We also do not want to rely on the cellular infrastructure. We are sometimes in remote areas where cellular may not work, but radio might. Also when the big statewide power outage happened, many cell towers went down.

Upon hearing back from Fisher Wireless to know what technologies they support, I will look in to the P25 w/ AES256 and the Hytera w/ AES256, although I would strongly prefer to stick with Motorola.

It seems to me that going DMR / MOTOTRBO and renting the air time through Fisher Wireless TeamTalk is the solution glaring me in the face, but as Voyager pointed out, competition could just monitor the DMR system and find us.

So I guess my real question at this point is: How do I go encrypted on MOTOTRBO, beyond "Enhanced Security", which some have said is possible to get around. Are there optional add-on boards or something? It sounds like I can't "hide", but rather I can scramble/encrypt?

 

[mikewazowski]

Hytera does AES-128, not AES-256.

Motorola does AES-128 as well but they do not offer it in North America so you're stuck with Enhanced.

I highly doubt that Fisher offers any P25 options and if their TRBO system is Motorola and it uses any Motorola proprietary features, you will not be able to use Hytera radios on it.

I think you're stuck with Enhanced encryption on TRBO or NXDN unless you've got huge bucks, the know how and connections to build your own system.

 

[KE5MC]

Stringer,

Follow-up with Fisher and asked what their coverage is in the area of interest. If cell phone coverage is lacking then they may have issues too. Also find out if their repeater sites have backup power.