ORION reception in Bellevue

[IrvingtonVFD43]

Is anybody having issues with ORION around Bellevue? Seems I have a real hard time getting the control channel to "lock". Very bad decoding of audio as well.

All is well with OPPD Gretna Tower and Lancaster County EDACS making the trip well from 50 miles, but can't get ORION, which is about 7 miles north from Titan Tower at the I 480/80 split.

What's up with that???

[timkilbride]

Can't decode from my place either. However, I am behind a hill on Hancock near the AFB.

[obijohn]

Originally Posted by IrvingtonVFD43

Is anybody having issues with ORION around Bellevue? Seems I have a real hard time getting the control channel to "lock". Very bad decoding of audio as well.

Welcome to "LSM" That's "linear simulcast modulation".
This is why you don't receive the voice channels reliably.
In a simulcast system, there is an issue called "SDS" or "Simulcast delay spread".

Between the two above acronyms, it means that if you don't live in the primary intended
coverage area, and have a special receiver intended to demodulate the P25 signal, you aren't going
to have reliable reception.

Digital capable scanners do fine on non-simulcast systems.

The reasons why your scanner does not work in this situation is fairly complex.
You would expect a $500 investment to work great, but in your location, there is no guarantee it will.

[KG4WHM]

Originally Posted by obijohn

Welcome to "LSM" That's "linear simulcast modulation".
This is why you don't receive the voice channels reliably.
In a simulcast system, there is an issue called "SDS" or "Simulcast delay spread".

Between the two above acronyms, it means that if you don't live in the primary intended
coverage area, and have a special receiver intended to demodulate the P25 signal, you aren't going
to have reliable reception.

Digital capable scanners do fine on non-simulcast systems.

The reasons why your scanner does not work in this situation is fairly complex.
You would expect a $500 investment to work great, but in your location, there is no guarantee it will.

I have read other member's reports about the new uniden XTs on the STARCOM21 system in Illinoise. The simulcast sites on that system works great with the new scanners, no drop out or audio not decoding, vs the older model scanners which have the same problems that we experience with Omaha's system. These sites are rebanded.

I have notice that my scanner, 369XT, has a hard time decoding the ORIN system when the voice channel end in zero like 86x.xx00. If the channel end in five, 86x.xxx5, it decodes without any problems. I am wondering if this has anything to do with sprint. They have rebanded into the 86x.xxxx range a couple of years ago.

[IrvingtonVFD43]

Originally Posted by KG4WHM

I have notice that my scanner, 369XT, has a hard time decoding the ORIN system when the voice channel end in zero like 86x.xx00. If the channel end in five, 86x.xxx5, it decodes without any problems. I am wondering if this has anything to do with sprint. They have rebanded into the 86x.xxxx range a couple of years ago.

Hard to say. I do need the apply attenuator however when I am home, and ORION decodes slightly better, but not by much. I haven't noticed the frequencies that my scanner isn't digesting ORION well. I will have to take a look.

[IrvingtonVFD43]

Originally Posted by timkilbride

Can't decode from my place either. However, I am behind a hill on Hancock near the AFB.

I know where you are at Tim. You got "Mt. Everest" directly north of you, even Sarpy County reception gets spotty at times around your area, especially at Hayworth Park.

[wb0qqk]

There are places in Old Towne that Omaha's system can't be heard on our Spectra mobiles.
I was listening to some of OPD's SE traffic a few months ago and it was breaking up as I
drove northbound on Franklin before turning west on Harvell.

[obijohn]

Originally Posted by wb0qqk

There are places in Old Towne that Omaha's system can't be heard on our Spectra mobiles.
I was listening to some of OPD's SE traffic a few months ago and it was breaking up as I
drove northbound on Franklin before turning west on Harvell.

Welcome to "Mt. Everest", Frank!
That's quite a hill, isn't it?

I remember on ATS's mobile stuff, that even in west Omaha, a user would usually vote to the Bellevue
tower because of the impressive height of "mount everest".
In fact, I remember transmitting with a portable standing at the voter rack at 29 & Harney, and it would always vote "Bellevue".
Quite an impressive hill.

"ORION" needs a "south" tower.

I think we have just identified the location of it.

[IrvingtonVFD43]

SIightly off topic, but live almost on top of that hill near Bellevue East HS, which gives me excellent reception on my rail stream.

On good days I will hear trains over the BNSF/UP clear into Lincoln, Fremont, Kennard to the west. BNSF just shy of Watson, Missouri, and Nebraska City to the south over the UP.

Not much east but the BNSF Council Bluffs Sub. Almost to Mondamin, Ia to the north across the UP. .

On topic:

But if ORION wasn't a simulcast LSM system, I am sure reception would be much better. I read about LSM issues over on the P25 forum earlier this week.

[wb0qqk]

The hill east of BEHS is a good location.

Back in 1997, we put the 145.115 repeater at the old city radio building on Little John Road.
In prelude to the installation, I ran some VSWR tests using a Bird 43 and an Icom IC-28A
on the DB224 antenna that was about 70 feet up from ground level. I worked a mobile station
who was westbound on US 30 about 25 miles west of Fremont on 146.52 mHz. After that, I
knew it would be a good site. In years since, a 144' monopole has replaced the old tower
and became the home for the 147.060 repeater after we moved the 145.115 machine to
another location and added a voted receiver system.

[Astrak]

Just a suggestion, a patch...not a solution to the LSM problem is to use a directional antenna if it's a base scanner or a scanner that's not going to be mobile. I just set up a Wilson 301111 yagi for the RWC system here in Phoenix which is a large multi simulcast system and it seems to be working better than just the 800mhz RS antenna I had on my PRO-106.

[wb0qqk]

Add a BDA to the yagi and you'll really be cooking. LOL !

[Ghstwolf62]

Ok this may be totally off the wall but the ORION system has been driving me nuts reception wise since I got a digital scanner back in March, meaning it is horrid.

Now I don't know all that much about radios etc so feel free to tell me I'm nuts but was in Indianapolis the other day and noticed a recommendation for their MECCA system in RR to turn off Multi-Site and place it on OFF not STAT.

Noticed a real improvement on things while there and got a bug to try it when I got back in town here last night.

Set system to OFF and guess what?

Reception has gotten markedly better at least for me, not much dropped traffic at all and picking up lots more in general too.

Don't know if it's a valid idea or not but it does seem to help, just a thought to try.

[timkilbride]

Originally Posted by Ghstwolf62

Ok this may be totally off the wall but the ORION system has been driving me nuts reception wise since I got a digital scanner back in March, meaning it is horrid.

Now I don't know all that much about radios etc so feel free to tell me I'm nuts but was in Indianapolis the other day and noticed a recommendation for their MECCA system in RR to turn off Multi-Site and place it on OFF not STAT.

Noticed a real improvement on things while there and got a bug to try it when I got back in town here last night.

Set system to OFF and guess what?

Reception has gotten markedly better at least for me, not much dropped traffic at all and picking up lots more in general too.

Don't know if it's a valid idea or not but it does seem to help, just a thought to try.

Where do you find/change these settings at? I don't think I am following.

For the heck of it, I took my Larsen 150/450/800 off and put on a low-band antenna(tuned to 42mHZ). It seems to be decoding ORION better when I'm in Bellevue. With the out of band antenna I'm sure its not hearing as many towers allowing for less confusion with many signals coming into the radio at once.

Tim

[Ghstwolf62]

Originally Posted by timkilbride

Where do you find/change these settings at? I don't think I am following.

For the heck of it, I took my Larsen 150/450/800 off and put on a low-band antenna(tuned to 42mHZ). It seems to be decoding ORION better when I'm in Bellevue. With the out of band antenna I'm sure its not hearing as many towers allowing for less confusion with many signals coming into the radio at once.

Tim

Well I don't understand a lot of this new fangled stuff to tell the truth and am probably doing things all wrong but I don't see any traffic off anything but the Douglas County Simulcast site and the Washington County Simulcast site. Those two seem to the only Public Safety sites in the entire system. Part of the things I tried to do in figuring out why I wasn't ever getting crap on this system is to place each site in it's own bank and associate all talk groups with each site. I got no PS traffic off any site except those two. Finally I just inputted those in and seem to do fine.

I don't quite understand to tell the truth why the power company's sites are included in the ORION PS system but I'm sure there is an explanation. They certainly don't seem to carry any PS traffic off them.

As to the settings I found if I did use all the sites and placed them into one system then the multi-site mode would invariably lock onto one of the non PS sites and I would hear NOTHING!. Taking it off into STAT got it checking all sites but still wasn't ideal. Finally until last night I just put in those two sites but still on ROAM which seemed to be better but not nearly as good as now when it's set to OFF.

In the trunking setup for your system when you program the scanner you'll have a choice of ROAM, STAT, or OFF for multi site mode. I just tried the OFF setting when I got into town last night and it's working great. Alternatively if already programmed go into program and select current on the system not the groups and then go down to multi-site and select off. That's on a 600 so if you have Uniden I can't help you or even tell you if they have something comparable.

As to the out of band antenna, well I'll probably get some comments, but quite a few years ago I didn't have money to buy a scanner antenna but did have an extra CB antenna, so hooked that up to see how it worked.

It worked great and ever since I use a five foot Firestick with a BNC adapter on my scanners mounted to the mirror on my truck. No problems whatsoever and I pick up some systems out 50 miles or better.

I'd say make sure all the power company sites are out of your scanner because I don't see that they do anything for you at all except tie up the scanner depending on setting.

[IrvingtonVFD43]

Originally Posted by Ghstwolf62

I don't quite understand to tell the truth why the power company's sites are included in the ORION PS system but I'm sure there is an explanation. They certainly don't seem to carry any PS traffic off them.

Every once in a while, for reasons unknown, a Washington County Deputy, Fire and Blair Community Schools will pop up. I heard them over Elkhorn and Gretna towers, in fact yesterday I heard a BCS Bus Driver talking to another Bus Driver about a kid being a real pain in the butt. (but aren't they all??)

[IrvingtonVFD43]

Originally Posted by Ghstwolf62

I'd say make sure all the power company sites are out of your scanner because I don't see that they do anything for you at all except tie up the scanner depending on setting.

OPPD is real handy to have on hand when the weather turns bad and your lights go out. You can kinda get a feel of what caused the outage, where it occured and so forth. Any other times, it is real boring.

For folks that recall the June 27th, 2008 storm that about blew Omaha down, OPPD was a great source of info on outage info and I found a boatload of new talkgroups.

[KG4WHM]

You see OPD pop up on OPPD sites as well.
The public safety sites and OPPD sites are tied together, same system that is why they are in the database together. Public safety, if the radios have the control channel programmed in, can key up on any site on the system OPPD, Douglas county, Washington county and Pott county. It seems like OPPD can only key up on OPPD sites even if they have the control channels programmed in. I have seen on Procom 96 were OPPD radio ID got denied a voice channel on Douglas county site.
For a scanner user this really means nothing. If OPD pop up on a OPPD site they are still broadcasted on the Douglas county site. You can't hold on an OPD talkgroup while on the OPPD Gretna site and hear the talkgroup, unless a radio is affiliated with that talkgroup on that site.