28 freq limit on EDACS / ?? NSRS

[Pro-95]

Ok I'm learning this stuff as I go....

Only 28 frequencies are allowed on a GE/Ericsson EDACS?

Question, I assume repeaters don't qualify??? as additional frequencies??? (note: my terminology may be in error)

On Washoe County Communications System (WCCS) EDACS there are a total of 38 frequencies if you consider repeaters as additional frequencies..... Programming all 38 freqs into an EDAC trunking bank seems to work without difficulty. So now I'm confused. What happend to the 28 freq limit or is that only at the base station and as a listener I can program all 38. And this seemingly works.

Which leads to the next part of this question....

On NSRS-Nevada Shared Radio System, there are literally hundreds of frequencies in the wide area trunk system. However only a smaller amount are geographically available to any one scanner at any given time. So how does this seemingly massive system escape the 28 freq limit. And if you traveled across the wide area system how is control maintained? And to program for such a wide area system, if even only for Reno/Sparks/Carson/Tahoe/Virginia City areas would require ~ 70 frequencies. Now knowing that it seems to be working on the Washoe County EDACS on 38 freq's, wouldn't/shouldn't the 70+ freqs on the NSRS programmed work as well?

I ask this because of directly and possibly due to interoperability I can not on my Pro-95 seem to be able to scan both WCCS and NSRS even with each in a seperate EDACS bank. If I begin trunk scan in NSRS, NSRS works but not WCCS and versa visa. Is this something from mirrored and common talk groups across each individual system or is the radio not able to handle this (I find this hard to beleive) or did I miss that day of class. Granted that I may have erroneously entered in the NSRS freq's but I did use the database from this website and the seemingly indicated LCN for each transmitter/repeater.

Please feel free to correct me on terminology or understanding.

[N_Jay]

I am not sure what you mean by "repeaters"?

Ona single site system each frequency is in one repeater at the site.

On a multi-site systems there are several configurations which can use the same frequencies at each site, or different frequencies at each site.

The channel count (frequency count) at each site can be limited by several factors. I do not know what causes the limit on EDACS specifically, but it can be the amount of time required to provide the channel information for each channel, or it could be a limit within the softeware or hardward design of the system.

Usually this is "per-Site" so each site can be built up to the limit.
In some casses two sites worth of equipment (two control channels) can be located at the same site to exceed this limit.

[greg_miotke]

There Can be up too 1,000 id's on system on EDACS

Originally Posted by N_Jay

I am not sure what you mean by "repeaters"?

Ona single site system each frequency is in one repeater at the site.

On a multi-site systems there are several configurations which can use the same frequencies at each site, or different frequencies at each site.

The channel count (frequency count) at each site can be limited by several factors. I do not know what causes the limit on EDACS specifically, but it can be the amount of time required to provide the channel information for each channel, or it could be a limit within the softeware or hardward design of the system.

Usually this is "per-Site" so each site can be built up to the limit.
In some casses two sites worth of equipment (two control channels) can be located at the same site to exceed this limit.

[iceman47]

On the NSRS system there are 3 areas of command, North, east and south.
These 3 command districts simulcast the individual areas of their responsability.
As an example: Reno is Northern command and broadcasts simulcast separate from Elko Command and Las Vegas Command.
In the Reno area, NSRS simulcasts with the Washoe system through the IMC (Integrated multi-site console controller).
When the Reno system failed today NHP was still working in the Washoe area through the Washoe System. The balance of thr Northern area was without communications since Washoe's system only covers Washoe Valley.
AS for frequencies:
Each tower site may contain a maximum of 24 frequencies or channels, one of which is assigned as the control channel.
As you travel across the system each radio will self affiliate with a new site as the control channel becomes available. Like Cell Phone systems do as you move from tower to tower.
The Tower sites are linked by Microwave links or 24 channel T-1 or 32 channel E-1 links, "Through phone lines" to central dispatch.
This function is controlled by what is called a Star Gate Controller.
Hence if a Reno unit (0753) were in Las Vegas he would still be routed to his dispatch in Reno unless the operator switched to that locality.
The frequencies are repeated at various sites throughout the wide area system and are assigned to locations far enough away from each other so as not to overlap and conflict.
I must read your question more to see if there is something I missed and post it later.
Typing my thoughts is a bummer for me, but I do try.

[N_Jay]

Originally Posted by greg_miotke

There Can be up too 1,000 id's on system on EDACS

There can be many 1000's of IDs on an EDACS system.

[Pro-95]

Ok it's begining to click, well at least there is a slight glimmer of light over my head.

So then my example of WCCS with 38 freq's programmed in one bank in LCN from RENO METRO(site), VIRGINIA PEAK(site),SLIDE MOUNTAIN(site) and TAHOE(site) works because although I travel from under Slide Mtn to Reno Proper the control signal is "handed off" (cellular terminology) to the next closest site.

Question: Are also then the frequencies changed because I am now using the frequencies of the "new" site?

So back to programming for NSRS... To receive the control ID freq you need to be in the geographic area of a site. But in the case of NSRS there are many sites, each with their own control. How would one program a bank of freq's for NSRS so that the control could be received? Should the predicted geographical start point (where the scan is initiated) be the first site programmed to accquire the control?

Or is this a scanner function where a series of freq's programmed into a radio that is not geographically nearby, thus making a dead signal cause the scanning of control to cease? Example (exaggerated) I program Slide Mountain, then Las Vegas each significantly geographically distant then program Peavine nearby to Slide Mountain, what affect does this have on scanning on an EDACS system. Does the scanning cease or are "dead" frequencies skipped then resumed upon getting back a control frequency.

[iceman47]

If you want to follow the system along a specific route you must program each site separate.
Example:Reno To Lovelock.
Red peak site
Patrick
Fernley/Eagle Ridge
Nixon
Lovelock
Depending on your scanner, you may only program one site per bank.
In this scenario you would need to use 5 separate banks.
Some scanners allow you to program several sites in one bank but you must l/o the frequencies for the site you are not using.
I believe this will work on a pro-92.
Think of each site as having several base stations one for each frequency at that site.

[WayneH]

I'm a bit rusty but this is what I recall the maximums being:

Maximum number of channels: 21 (Motorola is 28)
Radios: 16,383
Groups: 2,047

-Wayne

[Pro-95]

Bummer. I was afraid you'd say something like that.

So what is actually happening when I've programmed 4 sites for WCCS. Is the control picked up from RENO METRO as it is the first set of freq's programmed or is the nearest site SLIDE MOUNTAIN picked up even if it is the third site programmed into bank one?

Would the radio work better/stronger/faster or ???? if I dumped the other 3 sites from the first bank. Is it really skipping the other 3 sites. (sorry just confirming)

Seems as though this method creates a lot of "dead" channels in a bank if your only going to use a small handful for each site.

[iceman47]

With all of the sites programmed in one bank, I believe the scanner is becoming confused by having 3 control channels active at one time.
Try each site separate by locking out the other 2 sites and see if it tracks allright with the one site working.
Also remember that EDACS must be programmen in LCN (Logical channel order).
In the NSRS system the channels are in ascending order from lowest frequency to highest.

[Pro-95]

Interesting....

I renamed the channels by their site name then LCN and the radio did start hiccuping. Bizarre.

I locked out everything but RENO METRO and it worked like a champ. for a test I unlocked SLIDE MOUNTAIN (gegraphically much closer) and the radio failed to accquire a control and follow conversations. I locked up RENO METRO leaving SLIDE MOUNTAIN unlocked and the radio failed to acquire a control. Things that make you go hmmmmm.

So in the case of WCCS where there are 4 sites each with varing amounts of frequencies, does the site with 1/2 as many freq's work twice as hard to maintain the traffic? Example RENO METRO site with 15 freq's and VIRGINIA PEAK site with 7 freq's, each presumably carring the same traffic.

[iceman47]

The sites with the most frequencies will be located where radio traffic would be the highest and the smaller sites where traffic is lower.
As for too much traffic at a site, they could get a busy signal and be put in queing mode for the next available voice channel.
This is highly unlikely, however if the system gets too busy and no voice channel is available, that is what will happen.
Don't know why slide failed for sure.
Best bet is just use the site that you can hear best from your location.

[Pro-95]

Thanks a million for the help in understanding!

No more questions... well for tonight anyway.

Good night.

[JoeyC]

Originally Posted by Pro-95

Interesting....

I renamed the channels by their site name then LCN and the radio did start hiccuping. Bizarre.

I locked out everything but RENO METRO and it worked like a champ. for a test I unlocked SLIDE MOUNTAIN (gegraphically much closer) and the radio failed to accquire a control and follow conversations. I locked up RENO METRO leaving SLIDE MOUNTAIN unlocked and the radio failed to acquire a control. Things that make you go hmmmmm.

No doubt the systems didn't work. You can't put multiple EDACS systems in the same bank. Each must be in their own bank with the freqs in the proper LCN order beginning with the FIRST channel in the bank. You cannot program RENO then Slide Mtn and expect it work. You must program Reno in a bank, Slide Mtn in another bank, Virginia Pk in a 3rd bank, duplicating the talkgroups across the 3 banks and scan all 3 if you are to expect to have continuous coverage as you traverse the county.

[N_Jay]

Originally Posted by wayne_h

I'm a bit rusty but this is what I recall the maximums being:

Maximum number of channels: 21 (Motorola is 28)
Radios: 16,383
Groups: 2,047

-Wayne

I am fairly sure these are old numbers.

Maybe they were right in the 3600 BPS days of the old 6809 controllers.