Problems picking up Piscataway TRS?

[johnls7424]

Originally Posted by KC2zZe

Actually, with a change to Project 25 digital mode there is no additional cost to activate encryption. It's just feature settings that need to be adjusted while programming the radios. The old days of adding extra parts to radios so that you can have some form of encryption are gone for the most part.



Actually they wouldn't. Any agency worth their salt changes the encryption keys (not "numbers") with some regularity - some as often as daily. Whatever you invest in an "underground" radio that might have an active key in it would find it worthless relatively quickly.

Isn't that the truth!!!

[ion_op]

What good reason doe they need encryption? What it really means is that they want to be a closed governement and hide from the public. Not very American and probably not constitutional since they are funded by taxpayers and not private funds. Did anyone hear about this in advance? Again goes to show what's going on behind closed doors. There's a law called disclosure and they need to follow it.

[johnls7424]

I think that regular police dispatch in municipalities should be unencrypted. Howver SWAT and detective bands can be. If very sensitive and private material is being shared then encryption can be used. Regular police dispatch most of the time is not. Most police departments have TAC 2 channels that could be used to transmit this data.

[KC2ZHY]

I have CC data coming out of Piscataway on 478.9375, P25 Phase I. As of right now, all communications appear to be encrypted.
- System ID: 04B5
- Site Number: 0101
Upon doing an FCC search of trunking systems within a 50 km radius of my house with that frequency, only Piscataway comes up.

[GM]

Looks like we all missed (including myself) the most important part of tracking a trunked system: the Control Channel...

Thanks KC2ZHY for pointing out that glaring omission to me. (Next time, I need to do more research) Now, I can start grabbing talkgroups as they appear on the system, and others can run unitrunker to get more details. I will submit an update to the database once I find some more info.

So far, I see TG's 1002 and 5002 are in use, and encrypted. Reading an earlier post (I believe), the entire system (yes, including the Dept. of Public Works and Parks/Transportation Dept.) will be encrypted.

[W2SJW]

Here are the specifics so far. Very unusual setup on the channel ID tables with it skipping rows like it is (and the system is X2/Phase-II capable):

-TowerInfo
#This section is here for information only. With the exception
#of the Call Sign(s), This data is not Read back into the program at all.
System ID : 4B5
System Name :
WACN : BEE00
Tower Number (Decimal): 101
Tower Number (Hex) : T0101
Tower Description : (null)
Control Capabilities : Data,Voice,Registration
Call Sign(s) :
Timestamp : Wed Nov 7 07:50:18 2012

-Tables
#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots
00,851.00625,0.00625,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1
02,851.01250,0.01250,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,2
04,450.01250,0.01250,3.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,1
06,470.01250,0.01250,3.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,1
08,500.01250,0.01250,3.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,1

-Frequencies
#Format: Channel,Usage,Frequency(/Slot),Input Channel,Input Frequency(/Slot),Input Explicit(1/0),Hit Count
"06-0714","c",478.93750,"06-0714",481.93750,0,0
"06-2438","a",500.48750,"06-2438",503.48750,0,0
"06-2442","vd",500.53750,"06-2442",503.53750,0,4
"06-2456","avd",500.71250,"00-0000",851.00625,1,1
"06-2506","vd",501.33750,"00-0000",851.00625,1,6

# Talkgroup List for this system
# Format: Talkgroup,Priority,Description,Lastseen(Unix),Last Seen(Human m/dd/yyyy),FirstSeen(Unix),FirstSeen(Human),FG Color,BG Color,EncSeen,Hits
# Priority Values: 0=Ignore, 1=Highest priority, 99= Lowest Priority
1002,50,"T: 101 DT: 11/7/12@7:46",1352292382,"11/07/2012 @ 07:46",1352292365,"11/07/2012 @ 07:46","#000000","#000000","N",3
5002,50,"T: 101 DT: 11/7/12@7:46",1352292471,"11/07/2012 @ 07:47",1352292382,"11/07/2012 @ 07:46","#000000","#000000","Y",6
5005,50,"T: 101 DT: 11/7/12@7:46",1352292369,"11/07/2012 @ 07:46",1352292365,"11/07/2012 @ 07:46","#000000","#000000","N",2

[W2SJW]

Quick follow-up:

If any of the other NJ admins are browsing this - please leave any submissions for this to me.

Thanks!

[GM]

And so, the guessing games begin for this system: Based on my monitoring observations today, I have seen 1002 as one of the more active TG's, so I'm guessing that's the Police Dispatch. I'll venture to say that the 2000 block is the Fire Dept., as I observed 2002 (Fire Dispatch?), 2003, 2004, and 2005 all used as E mode. And I noticed that the 5000 block was used mostly in the morning/afternoon, again all in E mode. I'll guess that 5002 is the DPW Main, and 5005 as Transportation. Nothing confirmed, but based on what I listened to in the past at different times on this system, this would fall into the same pattern. It appears that Piscataway is using the last digit of "2" in a talkgroup as the Dispatch/Main talkgroup of a particular block. Comments, investigations, and confirmations are most welcomed from those "in the know..."

[KC2ZHY]

Originally Posted by GM

And so, the guessing games begin for this system: Based on my monitoring observations today, I have seen 1002 as one of the more active TG's, so I'm guessing that's the Police Dispatch. I'll venture to say that the 2000 block is the Fire Dept., as I observed 2002 (Fire Dispatch?), 2003, 2004, and 2005 all used as E mode. And I noticed that the 5000 block was used mostly in the morning/afternoon, again all in E mode. I'll guess that 5002 is the DPW Main, and 5005 as Transportation. Nothing confirmed, but based on what I listened to in the past at different times on this system, this would fall into the same pattern. It appears that Piscataway is using the last digit of "2" in a talkgroup as the Dispatch/Main talkgroup of a particular block. Comments, investigations, and confirmations are most welcomed from those "in the know..."

Currently, I would have to concur with these assumptions based on my observations as well.

[r60]

observations.all users encrypted and feedback from ES users is they do not like it.

[KC2ZHY]

Originally Posted by r60

observations.all users encrypted and feedback from ES users is they do not like it.

I've spoken to a handful of Fire / EMS guys from Piscataway myself (including a line officer), and they hate it. They feel completely isolated now, which is extremely counterproductive in this field.

[r60]

It sure did not take folks to forget the initiative of Interoperability.

Go figure.

[W2SJW]

If anyone that has connections could be as so kind to ask your friends why they had this rammed down their throats, I really want to hear the answer the township gave them...

[johnls7424]

Is it illegal to leak encryption numbers to people?

[W2SJW]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9930; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.11+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/7.1.0.649 Mobile Safari/534.11+)

Extremely.

Any attempt to decrpyt or intercept coded transmissions by a party outside of the original conversation is a violation of the ECPA...

[johnls7424]

I hear you!! Anywho, are you trying to setup a meeting with the township administrator about the radio encryption on almost all radio bands for piscataway?

[johnls7424]

Not to blow up on another topic, but it is related. South Plainfield ( the neighboring municipality) has problems talking to the police since the PD is encrypted however EMS and Fire are not. This creates a major backup with dispatch having to relay info transmissions back and forth between radio bands

[KC2ZHY]

Originally Posted by W2SJW

If anyone that has connections could be as so kind to ask your friends why they had this rammed down their throats, I really want to hear the answer the township gave them...

From what I gather, one day, the Fire Commissioners just threw it on them. Naturally, it was met with resistance but they persisted with the system anyway (as evident). Later on, I heard it was a ploy to try and achieve some sort of federal communications certification or something, perhaps to get money from a grant. Part of the conditions was encryption. The details are fuzzy otherwise, but in the end, I find using public funds to grant systems that prevent public access to them is deplorable.

[KC2zZe]

Originally Posted by KC2ZHY

Later on, I heard it was a ploy to try and achieve some sort of federal communications certification or something, perhaps to get money from a grant. Part of the conditions was encryption.

A grant? From who? This whole thing sounds fishy; somebody's either not being forthcoming or purposely deceptive. If there is any truth to this story, then the township fathers may have been lied to by somebody. The only thing that is mandated when recieving federal grant monies that I'm familiar with is that the system that is constructed must be APCO Project 25 capable (note that I said capable, not that it must be used). There is NOTHING in any of the grant paperwork that I've prepared many times over (AFG, corporate, and others) that specifies the need for encryption. Either someone was lied to - or the decision was in fact made locally and the national government is being scapegoated.

[KC2ZHY]

Originally Posted by KC2zZe

A grant? From who? This whole thing sounds fishy; somebody's either not being forthcoming or purposely deceptive. If there is any truth to this story, then the township fathers may have been lied to by somebody. The only thing that is mandated when recieving federal grant monies that I'm familiar with is that the system that is constructed must be APCO Project 25 capable (note that I said capable, not that it must be used). There is NOTHING in any of the grant paperwork that I've prepared many times over (AFG, corporate, and others) that specifies the need for encryption. Either someone was lied to - or the decision was in fact made locally and the national government is being scapegoated.

I agree to the purposeful deception; that's really what it's starting to sound like.

Apparently when it came up of "Why encryption?", a fire commissioner (I believe) said something along the lines of it being safer. Somebody then countered with the whole interoperability aspect, which got a response along the lines of "don't worry about it."