Wide Band Systems Still Operating Post 1/1/2013 FCC Narrowbanding Deadline

[railtrailbiker]

Okay, how many wide band public safety systems are still operating in NJ?

Let's hear from everyone as to what agencies still haven't made the switch over to narrowband/P25.

Thanks.

Glen Rock PD, EMS, and Fire
Ridgewood PD, EMS, Fire, and Public Works
Paramus PD, EMS, and Fire

[kb2vxa]

Why does it have to be P25?

[mlmummert]

Originally Posted by kb2vxa

Why does it have to be P25?

And who is taking test equipment out to find out if these supposed wide band operations are actually wide band?


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[IBM]

Hanover County, VA went narrowband on their simulcast paging frequency 158.760MHz on the 29th of Dec. Audio still comes through my 35 year old Regency scanner crystal clear. However, talks have arose about the county going to 6.25KHz really soon after they made their transition to 12.5KHz. Dunno why, but I guess they want to get ahead of the curve.

However, surrounding counties that are not on P25 systems like Hanover are still operating on wideband 25KHz. Such as Caroline County, Powhatan County, etc. Not sure when they will transition.

[railtrailbiker]

Originally Posted by kb2vxa

Why does it have to be P25?

Narrowband analog or P25.

[railtrailbiker]

Originally Posted by mlmummert

And who is taking test equipment out to find out if these supposed wide band operations are actually wide band?


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Just based on any discernible changes by listening to your scanner.

[902]

Some snags to consider: If the license has not been modified to include narrowband emissions, two things happen: 1) modification now flags the license to the FCC's enforcement bureau; 2) simply having the hardware in compliance and not doing anything with the license might invalidate the license. The emissions have to reflect what's being used. You can't go out and get DMR radios, for example, start using them in DMR and have only 20K0F3E (or 11K2F3E) emissions on the license without any other proper emission listed.

No one knows (probably not even the FCC) what will happen with the enforcement bureau getting a list of licenses. There are some licenses that are in queue for coordination or narrowbanding that have gone to coordinators. Those will have a grace period to allow for the last minute panic. There are licenses that have been granted waivers. There is no one place that lists who those are. So, only the licensee knows for sure. If they are like "deer in the headlights" over their license, they're probably in violation and low hanging fruit for enforcement (revenue!). If they are like "we sent our application in" they need to be compliant in their hardware, but the license gets a little grace period as the powers that be hack through the onslaught. If they got a waiver, they are somewhere in a sea of public notices.

Either way, we all woke up yesterday and everything turned on. Compliant or not. The honor system (or lack thereof) will prevail. In other words, if someone keeps operating and no one's caught up to them, but they're causing interference, someone may inevitably "drop a dime" on them and the consequences will probably be worse than not having complied in the first place. Notice I keep saying "probably" a lot. No one knows for sure.

P25 - It doesn't need to be P25. Minimally, it's any technology that fits one voicepath in a 12.5 kHz channelspace and fits a certain emission mask. P25 phase 1 and 2, DMR, NXDN, analog narrow, SSB, ACSB, OpenSky, reduced power TETRA, and maybe even full power TETRA all do that. It's also 9.6 kbps in a 12.5 kHz channelspace, or equivalent. So a 19.2 kbps data throughput can remain on a 20 kHz channel without modification or reduction in occupied bandwidth.

[kb2vxa]

"Just based on any discernible changes by listening to your scanner."
You can't discern changes by ear. That's why this post:

"And who is taking test equipment out to find out if these supposed wide band operations are actually wide band?"
Right, you need a station monitor to determine bandwidth of a signal. That's how with the aid of another remotely located Amateur with one I was able to adjust FM deviation of a transmitter I was working on.

Now let's stop making mountains out of mole hills. Unless you hold the license for a non-compliant transmitter what do you care? Meh, it's not my problem.

[W2SJW]

Originally Posted by kb2vxa

"Just based on any discernible changes by listening to your scanner."
You can't discern changes by ear.

Yes, you can. Listening to an analog channel that only has +/- 2.5k deviation when the radio on your end is set for 5k, the audio will be much softer/quieter.

That's how I conformed almost all of Northampton & Monroe counties in PA completed their narrowbanding. On my Icom ID-880, if you pass FM through a channel that set for NFM, it clips out of the passband.

[Mtnrider]

I hope when the "Emissions" police come knocking here in New Yawk they take down the high profile unlicensed MURS and itinerant Repeaters and Base Stations....

[kb2vxa]

"Yes, you can. Listening to an analog channel that only has +/- 2.5k deviation when the radio on your end is set for 5k, the audio will be much softer/quieter."

Then why can't the scanner you sold me tell the difference? (;->) Seriously, when switching between FM and NFM the difference is negligible, my tin ear can hardly notice any difference. That being the case it's not a definitive test prone to error. When it comes to scanners it's like the car commercial said; your actual mileage may vary.

[comsec1]

We can't even get the FCC to enforce the numerous harmful interference complaints to our system that we gave them so until they fix that I'm not worried one bit if some of our thousand or so vhf radios got missed in the process. Jusy keep your towers painted and your FCC tower registration numbers visible and you'll be fine.

[902]

Originally Posted by comsec1

We can't even get the FCC to enforce the numerous harmful interference complaints to our system that we gave them...

What interference issues are you having?

[wd8chl]

Originally Posted by kb2vxa

Why does it have to be P25?

No, there is no P25 requirement. There is no digital mandate in narrowbanding or in rebanding on 800 MHz. Only the 700 MHz band has any kind of digital mandate, and that is really not stated as 'required digital transition', It's just that to meet the 6.25 KHz mandate there, analog won't work-at least not for voice.

[kb2vxa]

I see sarcasm is lost on you, why else would I ask such a silly question? (;->)

[dwhite1762]

There is no 6.25 mandate ....

Has the FCC established a schedule for mandatory migration to 6.25 kHz efficiency?

No. The Commission has not set any date by which licensees must operate in 6.25 kHz efficiency. The current mandate only requires users to migrate to 12.5 kHz efficiency by January 1. 2013.

Just wanted to put this out there.
Refer to here for the FCC info
VHF/UHF Narrowbanding FAQs

[quarterwave]

I am guessing there is a huge amount of people who have systems and thought that just changing the license was all they had to do. Mostly because they don't understand the information out there, but if there is a lack of guidance from someone in the know, a dealer or consultant....I bet there are lots of these out there.

My company's license was already modified for narrow (and wide still on it) plus narrow and wide data a couple of years ago. We were still operating wide until December, now we are narrow. However, we submitted a renewal/modification in September along with an application for a new license...we are past all the checkpoints, and through coordination approvals as of end of Sept....still waiting for grants.

[902]

Originally Posted by dwhite1762

There is no 6.25 mandate ....

Has the FCC established a schedule for mandatory migration to 6.25 kHz efficiency?

No. The Commission has not set any date by which licensees must operate in 6.25 kHz efficiency. The current mandate only requires users to migrate to 12.5 kHz efficiency by January 1. 2013.

Just wanted to put this out there.
Refer to here for the FCC info
VHF/UHF Narrowbanding FAQs

That's correct, there isn't one for VHF or UHF. The only date out there is the one for 700 MHz.

Now, there is a current data throughput efficiency that divides down to 6.25 kHz.

19.2 kbps can occupy a full 25 kHz wide channel.
9.6 kbps can occupy a 12.5 kHz channel
4.8 kbps can occupy a 6.25 kHz channel

(My editorial comment - makes you think about 1.2 kbps packet radio occupying a 25 kHz wide channel in ham packet.)

[jfhtm350]

What would it sound like if you program NFM on a wideband channel? I have done that to one freq and it sounds horrible. Sounds like a bunch of digital noise or interference. When programmed back to wideband the sound comes in perfect so they have to still be wideband. Would all of them sound like that if they were wideband programmed for narrowband?

[nd5y]

Your received audio level also depends on who set up the system and how the end users operate it. Some mobile and hand held radio users don't even hold the mic anywhere near their mouths. They leave it attached to their shirt or the mic hanger in a vehicle. Some dispatchers sit back several feet from the mic and don't talk into it properly. If you do that even on a radio set to wideband you could get less than 2.5 kHz of deviation. On the other hand you can have somebody that talks loud and eats the mic and some radios set to narrowband might put out more than 2.5 kHz deviation. Add to that the fact that some repeaters, base and mobile radios may be installed or maintained by incompetent techs that don't properly set audio levels and deviation or even check it at all on new installations.