Encryption

[bcarlson56649]

How can I find out if my local police/fire uses encryption, or if their broadcasts are open to the public?

I hesitate to pay a lot for a scanner, and then find out it is unuseable in my area!

Local officials are no help, I was told they know nothing about it and radio services are provided by a private contractor.

 

[troymail]

How can I find out if my local police/fire uses encryption, or if their broadcasts are open to the public?

I hesitate to pay a lot for a scanner, and then find out it is unuseable in my area!

Local officials are no help, I was told they know nothing about it and radio services are provided by a private contractor.

You can look int the database on this site for your location but you might also want to identify where you are as in some situations, it might require a knowledgeable user in your area to answer the question.

 

[bcarlson56649]

Thanks for the reply troymail.

I have looked thru the database, but can't really understand much of it as I am new to stuff like this.

I did see my town of International Falls, MN, 56649 listed in various places, along with my county of Koochiching, MN, shown also several places.

But that is about as far as I got, I could not really figure out how to tell if police/fire broadcasts are open for public reception or are encrypted.

All help appreciated!

 

[captclint]

Thanks for the reply troymail.

I did see my town of International Falls, MN, 56649 listed in various places, along with my county of Koochiching, MN, shown also several places.

But that is about as far as I got, I could not really figure out how to tell if police/fire broadcasts are open for public reception or are encrypted.

All help appreciated!

There would be an "E" under mode if anything was encrypted. I don't see anything in your area that is encrypted. However, you will need a digital scanner to receive (ARMER)

 

[troymail]

Given you are in Minnesota, you'll probably get (and need) better answers on this by asking this question in the Minnesota forum.

Having said that, the first step is always going to be checking the database here. Still, keep in mind that most of the data here is submitted by other scanner users vs. system owners (the latter of which tend to keep all of this information "close hold'). Therefore, the database is only one tool that you have to help gather information.

As Clint said, looking at the ARMER system, there isn't "E"ncryption listed but that is not an absolute. The information listed for Koochiching County(and other counties on this systems) is a bit suspect. It appears that all but two talkgroups are simply talkgroups based on the talkgroup id range vs. fully identified talkgroups. One of the two with more specific labels seems a bit uncertain as well. I see alot of the same thing for other counties on ARMER as well.

My point is - there could be various reasons why the talkgroups are listed that way.

In a best case scenario, these talkgroups are active but no one has yet determined their actual usage (and/or taken the time to submit that information to help others like you).

However, it could also be because these talkgroups are encrypted so no one really knows what is on them.

As far as things marked as "encrypted", see the dread "E" (or "e") these days in the "Mode" column (click on the column header for descriptions), there is an example (possibly) that shows the "E" isn't always applied to the data.

There is a talkgroup under "Lac Qui Parle County" that is labeled "County Encrypted All". However, you'll note that the "Mode" column does not indicate "E" for encryption.

One last suggestion for now - you may want to click on the small red and white triangle symbol in the upper right hand corner and have this discussion moved to the Minnesota forums to potentially get better answers.

EDIT: looking closer, while they do not appear to be (directly) assigned or used in your your county, there are about 90 talkgroups listed on the ARMER system that have the word "encrypted" in their description -- 82 of which do not have the "E" or "e" in the "Mode" column.

EDIT 2: looking even closer I see even more use of encryption on the system that isn't marked with an "E" or "e"

 

[N8IAA]

Thanks for the reply troymail.

I have looked thru the database, but can't really understand much of it as I am new to stuff like this.

I did see my town of International Falls, MN, 56649 listed in various places, along with my county of Koochiching, MN, shown also several places.

But that is about as far as I got, I could not really figure out how to tell if police/fire broadcasts are open for public reception or are encrypted.

All help appreciated!

Looking at the database, your county uses analog conventional frequencies. They do have TGID's on the ARMER system, but, only one is identified as law enforcement. It is probably to coordinate with the state police. No encryption on the TGID's.

You can use an analog scanner to follow the PD and FD in your county. Not many frequencies either. I recommend the BC125AT. It is inexpensive and easy to program by hand.
If you really desire a P-25 scanner, buy something inexpensive. There are a few in the For Sale forum further down the forums page.
Larry

 

[ofd8001]

Here is a link to the ARMER site where you can get maps on law enforcement, fire and EMS participation.

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ecn/programs/armer/Pages/current-status.aspx

Nothing suggests encryption is used on "regular" talkgroups in your area.

There are some other statewide talkgroups that are encrypted, such as special investigations. If they have "business" in your area, you can't hear them.

 

[troymail]

Based on the doc identified above, as of 11 months ago:

Your county is a "full particpant" in ARMER
County law enforcement does participate (use?) ARMER
County fire uses VHF
County EMS uses VHF

Some of this seems to be conflicting information but may mean fire and ems are eventually going over to ARMER too (if they haven't already).

According to the database, ARMER has 6 separate system "sites" in your county including one in International Falls. The document above says there are (or will be) 9-10 sites.

I don't think I see anything in the documentation one way or another about encryption other than we know that the system does have users that are using encryption.

From my experience, a lack of talkgroups (or in this case a list of "unknown" talkgroups for the county) would lead me to consider that there is a use of encryption but there isn't any way to know short of getting the information directly from someone in your area who monitors the things you want to monitor.

Given the above, I would recommend a digital scanner vs. any analog radio (if for nothing else to position you to listen to ARMER activity that clearly appears to be taking over) but we really can't provide specific on the use of encryption today - the information just isn't there.

 

[ofd8001]

It is a little confusing and one has to know the terms and context used for the terms.

Based on what I've seen for the northern part of Minnesota, the last phase of the ARMER system, the transition may go something like this:

Talkgroups are allocated for a county.
A patch between existing frequencies and a talkgroup is set. That's to provide interoperability, for example the state patrol can monitor the "local" folks.
As finances become available, local governments purchase subscriber units and then move over to the state system. Sometimes additional sites are needed for in building converage.
When the "locals" get their own radios and use the system more and scanner listeners submit revised information to RR the database is amended with more specific channel information.

Typically law enforcement goes first. Fire seems to be last.

At least this is how Polk County MN transitioned over the years, which I've watched pretty close as I visit family there.

Encryption on main channels and routinely used tac channels is rare, so I doubt the OP has a concern there. Encryption is used for those things one commonly associates with encryption: SWAT, Intelligence, surveillance and so on.

 

[troymail]

Encryption on main channels and routinely used tac channels is rare, so I doubt the OP has a concern there. Encryption is used for those things one commonly associates with encryption: SWAT, Intelligence, surveillance and so on.

Maybe

http://forums.radioreference.com/ge...ars-system-up-baldwin-county.html#post2849826