County PD on Trunked??

[radioman2001]

Not to open a can of worms so to speak, since certain individuals have stated that the County PD mobiles will NEVER operate on the trunked system, I offer the following. I monitor Westchester's Trunked System 8 hours a day 5 days a week at my work, I have it in my car radio for my drive time to Dutchess County, and in the last few days I have been logging unknown talkgroups and car id's. Whoever was doing the radio testing while talking to 60 Control specifically asked how the radio ID was coming up. Both times yesterday the ID's came up as Westchester County PD car numbers. It appears that indeed County PD now has radios in the Patrol cars. I also have logged 2 additional frequencies not listed in the data base for the South Zone.
To me as I have worked on the Westchester PD radio system on and off for the last 40 years it would make a lot of sense to switch to it, due to the poor portable coverage, interference and range issues of the past.
Maybe some one has more inside info.

 

[Alarms50]

Radioman2001, it appears that we both come to this site to help provide up to date information for this site. With that said, I am not going to re-state what I have posted in the past. In my opinion when new information is posted, as you have posted today, the more people that can help track this information and confirm it, the better it will be for the monitoring community.
So, for the rest of us who monitor Westchester's Trunked System, some questions for you on this new information.
1- What TG's were these transmissions coming up on?
2 - What were the new frequencies you logged for the South Zone? I have not come across any new YW licenses on the FCC website for Westchester in some time. There are other unused freq's Westchester is YW licensed for, but for whatever reason (i.e. co-channel proximity) they have not been used as of yet.
3 - Not that it is that important, but when you state that County PD radio identifiers were being used, was the operator saying this is Car 14xx (or 16xx, etc.) or were you viewing a Motorola ID appearing on your radio that is assigned to County PD? If you have more current info than I have, please post.

 

[radioman2001]

I agree, but you would have had to hear the transmission to get the same idea I did. One of the unknown talk groups I logged multiple times this week is 49616. The other I lost because my recording only goes about 4 hours and I didn't write it down before it scrolled away. The conversation between the mobile and 60 control as close as I can remember is as follows.
Mobile transmitting "radio repair to 60 control" 60control answers "60 control" mobile "how do you receive this transmission" 60 control "loud and clear" mobile "thank you 60 control, now can you GIVE me the ID and what it comes up as" 60 control" ID xxxxx coming up as DPS 1xxx. mobile" thank you radio repair clear" About an hour later the same conversation with another mobile by the same voice with a different ID and car number.
Now I am not going to give either the mobile ID or car number, I don't think that would be a good practice to. PM for any sensitive details, such as those ID's.
Unfortunately the additional freqs also scrolled away, I am trying to keep a close watch on it. I also found that one of the North channels is coming up in the South channel spacing. Now just because a channel isn't a FB8 YB8 or similar which affords protection from interference, that doesn't mean that you can't use a non-protected channel for the trunking system. I know I do it on my own system.
If I get the chance today I am going to program the mystery ID in my radio to monitor.

 

[radioman2001]

I have spent a lot of time checking all the Westchester licenses, and I have found that 6 frequencies that may have been modified to trunk operations in June 2010 call sign WPVA646, formerly conventional WPLV594 issue date 2/2003 , which may have been the former NORTH OPS channels. Does anyone know if those are still operational? I am still trying to correlate the frequencies to the channel numbers I am getting.

 

[GTR8000]

Now I am not going to give either the mobile ID or car number, I don't think that would be a good practice to. PM for any sensitive details, such as those ID's.

RID's are hardly "sensitive", given they pop up on most modern scanners. Please just post the information you've found so that others can corroborate your findings, and dispense with the silly "supersecret" nonsense.

 

[radioman2001]

WELL EXCUSE ME, for being a little protective. I would rather be chastised for being protective, than for giving away sensitive info. Never mind, I'll do it alone.

Admin please lock!

 

[GTR8000]

Hmm...there's definitely something sensitive in this thread...but it's not the "protected info", that's for sure. :twisted:

 

[Alarms50]

I have spent a lot of time checking all the Westchester licenses, and I have found that 6 frequencies that may have been modified to trunk operations in June 2010 call sign WPVA646, formerly conventional WPLV594 issue date 2/2003 , which may have been the former NORTH OPS channels. Does anyone know if those are still operational? I am still trying to correlate the frequencies to the channel numbers I am getting.

WPVA646 is the orignal YW license Westchester County received for this System. It is still valid until 06/2012. This license, although the frequency designators are FB2, the license is for YW operation. With that said this license could be implied to authorize the use of the current North Zone freq's at only the Yonkers and Valhalla South Zone sites.

WPVA646 was never converted from conventional, check out this link ULS Application - Public Safety Pool, Trunked - 0000764103 - WESTCHESTER, COUNTY OF for this license, then click on Reference Copy to see that this application was for YW authorization back on 5/10/2002. WPLV594 was never the former NORTH OPS channels. Prior to Westchester getting the eight Fireground freq's listed on ULS License - Public Safety Pool, Conventional License - WPMJ238 - WESTCHESTER, COUNTY OF - Frequencies Summary, we did not have any County Fireground freq's, except for a few Low Band freq's.

Also, if you are hearing TG 49616, this "xx616" TG could possibly be a new "All Call" TG, seeing that 1616 is Fire All Call, 17616 is EMS All Call, and 33616 is Hospital All Call.

 

[APX8000]

radioman2001...I would honor your request to lock the topic, but I feel that a little more researching by others might answer the original question. So I'm going to leave it open for now. If you decide to not post any more information (such as RIDs), that is your right. To others, if you are unhappy about him not posted RIDs, use/buy a scanner with the radio ID feature and post it. I will not block the posting of RIDs. They are just as common as talkgroups for current model scanners and I've used what others have sent me to personally verify and/or discover new talkgroups on the NYCOMCO EDACS system numerous times. And a reminder to all...lets be cordial to one another...if the topic starts to stray it's getting closed.

 

[Alarms50]

radioman2001...I would honor your request to lock the topic, but I feel that a little more researching by others might answer the original question. So I'm going to leave it open for now. If you decide to not post any more information (such as RIDs), that is your right. To others, if you are unhappy about him not posted RIDs, use/buy a scanner with the radio ID feature and post it. I will not block the posting of RIDs. They are just as common as talkgroups for current model scanners and I've used what others have sent me to personally verify and/or discover new talkgroups on the NYCOMCO EDACS system numerous times. And a reminder to all...lets be cordial to one another...if the topic starts to stray it's getting closed.

Good call. As I stated above, what is past is past, let's work together to better inform the RadioReference community. Hopefully somebody, including myself who is actively looking for this info, will find the information that has been hinted at and provide it to everyone here.

 

[radioman2001]

I have information (codeplugs from the late 90's that there were UHF Fire Ground channels and some OPS repeaters, located throughout Westchester. I havn't tried to transmit on them, but I have to assume that they are not operational.
I found another unlisted talk group 49776, and now not to create more problems, I question why would the county add additional all call groups for other than possibly additional user groups. What I have been saying is that the County of Westchester is the licensee, not the local Fire Departments, (don't get me wrong I was a firefighter in the county for 10 years) and since there is no real county Fire Department other than the dispatch center, the county airport crash trucks and the Grasslands fire brigade the county could if it chose to add anybody and everybody they want to the system.
In my opinion the system is underutilized with the present loading, and maybe that's what has been said, by I don't know who. ( I will tell you I was a fly on the wall in the 90's when the system was first suggested, that all county agencies go to a trunk system Motorola was proposing) The idea that this system is a FD only is insane. It's owned by the county was funded by the county 90% +of the radio equipment in the FD vehicles is county owned. With the present budget problems, and who knows what else, I could see the county putting everybody on it. Especially if they have to replace any equipment for the narrow banding mandate.
Realisticly if I had anything to do the the administration of this system, I would look at getting more channels (it is a Smart Zone system) for drop in coverages and then put at first all county agencies on it and continue to expand to local agencies. That's called interoperability.
For the next week or so, I will not have the time to monitor, I have another project due. I will leave Unitrunker running and post anything out of the usual.

 

[Alarms50]

FYI, Westchester County has a couple of licenses that appear to authorize additional freq's for the North Zone of the System, although they are designated PW. They are ULS License - Public Safety Pool, Conventional License - WQJG838 - WESTCHESTER, COUNTY OF - Frequencies Summary for freq's 470.900MHz, 477.025MHz, 477.050MHz, 477.075MHz for all six North Zone sites, The second is ULS License - Public Safety Pool, Conventional License - WQMI295 - WESTCHESTER, COUNTY OF - Frequencies Summary for freq 476.300MHz also for the six North Zone sites. Again, these are both licensed PW/FB2, so technically they are not for trunked operation, but in the waivers/attachments the County's memo to the FCC implies they will be used for the System.

I have been a Firefighter in Westchester for thirty five years, and a Company Officer for fifteen of those years. Radioman2001, your quote of 90% of the FD radios are owned by the County is only correct if you are referring to the Trunked System radios. Otherwise, each Fire Departement or Fire District must purchase their own radios, this includes all of the Fireground Portables (even though we use those freq's licensed to the County, we had to purchase are own Portables, the County did not provide even one radio for that authorization). And I agree let's get off the idea that this Trunked System is strictly for FD. I never said that. What I have stated, is that "originally" it was designed for FD, EMS, and the County Buses, and only for response use, not for "on scene" use. "Originally" the coverage of this Trunked System (and it has not been expanded from it's original design, except for the addition of two additional freq's for the South Zone) would not provide the coverage needed to provide adequate communications for firefighting attack crews, or if PD were to use it, Officers in foot pursuit, etc. Also from my understanding of NFPA 1221, on scene firefighting crews are no permitted to use repeater systems for communications.

 

[radioman2001]

I apologize if it was not you that stated the system was for FD only, but there have been some pretty pointed statements in the past that the county police and others will NEVER be day to day users of the trunked system except for interops. I think that's wrong and very shortsighted especially if the county does that. Can't stand the FD vs PD mentality BS.
Not to be petty, but I have a few more years than you in PS both in fire service and other services. Any firefighter should tell you that a trunking system is NOT for fire ground operations. I am very familiar with Westchester County's radios systems, both police and fire. I have been a radio tech for nearly 40 years, and have worked on all of their radio systems on and off for nearly all of those years.
In respect to the county fire radios I was speaking about the trunked system, I read the bid, and the allocation to departments. The departments didn't have to go on it and there were and may still be some departments that don't want the trunked system. I seem to remember Yorktown as one that refused at first to go on it at all. Part of the problem was the membership not knowing what was going on because all radio traffic was on the trunked, and the county refusing to allow any cross patching.
I was very involved in trying to solve the county PD problems of the 90's with interference and all,( some one forgot to renew their license so they lost some very important grandfathering) I even designed the present county police radio simulcast system, and did extensive testing of it, my company at the time just didn't get the bid for it, because the county wanted Motorola and the county wrote the bid so only Motorola could win. The present county trunked system is way better than the county PD system, so that would be an improvement, especially for a foot pursuit. It has double the voting sites as compared to the PD. With Smartzone you don't need have all the channels light up across the whole county for every conversation, enabling reuse.
All I am saying that is the county trunked system should be available to all agencies, you cannot get additional channels until you can prove a need to the FCC with higher loading numbers.

 

[ecps92]

Common mis-interpretation of the Guideline.

It recommends that users have access to channels other than the repeater [for a failure of the system]. For trunked channels this can be a Conventional Repeater with Talk-around as well, and for conventional systems, this just means having access to using simplex

There is no prohibition on using a Repeater for On-scene Ops.

. Also from my understanding of NFPA 1221, on scene firefighting crews are no permitted to use repeater systems for communications.

 

[Alarms50]

Common mis-interpretation of the Guideline.

It recommends that users have access to channels other than the repeater [for a failure of the system]. For trunked channels this can be a Conventional Repeater with Talk-around as well, and for conventional systems, this just means having access to using simplex

There is no prohibition on using a Repeater for On-scene Ops.

From NFPA 1221 Standard for the Installation, Maintenance, and use of Emergency Services Communications Systems 2010 Section 9.3.1.4 states "A tactical communications channel shall be capable of operating in analog simplex mode." Although this does not state you can't use repeaters, if it was my butt on the line, (and I am still on the job so it is) I want the system to be as Firefighter-proof as possible, this to me, means no repeaters. We have programmed only our primary Fireground Channel on the main bank of our portables. This way a Firefighter only has to turn the radio and key the mic, no matter how he much he turns the channel selector he is always on the primary FG. If a secondary channel is needed, they are available on other banks.
When the crap hits the fan Keep It Simple Sir (the KISS principle). What I am saying is, if you can keep the communications as "failure-proof" as possible from the begining, why take the chance of using these advanced communications pathways if you don't have to.

 

[GTR8000]

Looks like you guys are talking about two different things.

Alarms50 sounds like he's talking about FIREGROUND frequencies, specifically interior operations on portable. He's correct that NFPA (and others) strongly recommend the use of analog simplex only for these types of communications.

Everything else is fair game, including having an ops channel/talkgroup that is repeated/trunked which is used for directing the response or truck to truck comm.

When in doubt, KISS and go with what is least likely to fail when you really need it to work. That means rugged, reliable HT's with good, charged batteries operating analog simplex point to point. Murphy's Law is constantly at work in the fire service.

 

[Alarms50]

I even designed the present county police radio simulcast system, and did extensive testing of it, my company at the time just didn't get the bid for it, because the county wanted Motorola and the county wrote the bid so only Motorola could win. The present county trunked system is way better than the county PD system, so that would be an improvement, especially for a foot pursuit. It has double the voting sites as compared to the PD. With Smartzone you don't need have all the channels light up across the whole county for every conversation, enabling reuse.

What are the licenses currently used by the County PD? I see 155.31MHZ licenses ULS License - Public Safety Pool, Conventional License - WPEM283 - WESTCHESTER, COUNTY OF - Locations Summary, ULS License - Public Safety Pool, Conventional License - KEH749 - WESTCHESTER, COUNTY OF - Locations Summary, and ULS License - Public Safety Pool, Conventional License - WQLN766 - WESTCHESTER, COUNTY OF - Locations Summary, these links show ten locations currently licensed with Control Points of County PD HQ, which would exceed the number of Trunked System sites. I agree trunking is THE way to go for maximum efficiency of limited radio spectrum, it just appears the County has similar coverage on 155.31MHz to the Trunked System, albeit less freq's and not efficiently.

The departments didn't have to go on it and there were and may still be some departments that don't want the trunked system.

Currently less than one half of the County FD's utilize the UHF Trunked System for their primary response system (28 of 60 FD's/Brigades). Fifteen FD's utilize their own privated legacy systems, with the rest (seventeen) still using 46.26MHz & 46.06MHz for their primary response system.

One last point, as I stated in a previous post above, what is past is past, but why keep posting your thoughts on the "FD vs PD mentality BS"? The only PD I have a beef with is one that I am directly involved with, (and it is not County PD). I will not comment on this beef, but I am not alone in this opinion. PM me if you need to know the beef, it doesn't need to be aired out in public.

 

[Alarms50]

Radioman, just a quick update on some info I got today. I was speaking with one of the Dispatchers I know at 60 Control and asked him if there were any new TalkGroups on the System on their end. He told me that there are no new TG's in the 60 Control side of the System. He did comment to me that he wishes there was better coverage in his agency's coverage area because of dead areas.

 

[radioman2001]

County Police have many more RX voters than transmitter sites. If I have a chance I'll look for my list of them. I seem to remember 3 Spectra-Tac racks that handle 10 RX's each. The third one may not have been full.
Not to put down your contact, but I doubt a FD dispatcher is going to know anything that the PD does. They have to call HQ on the phone for information. While working today in Mt Pleasant, I happen to see a County Police Car with the trunking radio installed. Car number was 4188, a marked late model Tahoe. Somebody in PD is getting new radios.
Listening to the system, the only dead spots I hear are when portable radios are used. Yes the coverage could be better, but that's what voters are for. For instance if a voter was installed at the Fire House in Millwood or the school at the top of the hill on 120 or the water tank up there, that would have helped the portable radio traffic for that child struck call yesterday. Adding more RX's would help portable coverage, but the original; bid only called for 90% coverage with portables.

 

[Astrosaber]

Gents,

It was my understanding, that the county just started to add the trunked radios to only the supervisor/ special ops cars (k9,srt,etc). Not normal patrol. That could have been what radio testing you were hearing.

And they just underwent a overhaul of both repeated channels 310 and 550, I think last year. In doing that, they changed out alot of antique equipment and added receive sites.


Personally, I think the VHF system works well, but there is always room for improvement.