When will NYC go digital?

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SCPD

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First off, I know everyone is all against NYC going digital... but beside that point. When will they start to think about going digital? I mean it will happen eventually as it does with everything in technology.

But some questions for the future:

When they DO go digital. Will it likely be a trunking system or conventional as it is now?
 

scosgt

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Considering the cost of replacing every radio in use in the City, I doubt that is on the near horizon.
Remember, there are 34,000 cops alone. Plus NYFD, Sanitation, Traffic and every other City Agency.
 

newsnick175

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There is digital in use in NYC. The NYC DOITT UHF system has some digital users, most are radio shop personal. The point is that if narrow banding is the future, the use of digital modulation is almost certain. It will have to be phased in over time.
 

lafd55

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Doesn't FDNY already have XTS portables, and I have seen XTL in the trucks. If so they would just need to switch the digital settings in the portables, unless FDNY has special XTSs that don't have the option.
 
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FrankRaffa

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Knowing the City as I do, it's safe to say they wont do it unless it's federally mandated. Then, they'll wait until the last second and apply for an extension. Then, they'll hire a room full of consultants to figure out what to buy and how to make it compatible with NYPD who doesn't play by the same rulebook as everyone else. As soon as they figure all that out they'll put the project up for rebidding because it took so long the technology has become outdated. (That last part is optional.)
 

cackis

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The FDNY XTS3500 portables are flashed for P25 conventional however only one channel is programmed as P25 digital and is hardly ever used. All fireground transmissions are analog. We tried digital back in 2003 I believe and it was horrible. Missed transmissions (including a mayday in Queens) were the norm. Digital may work for dispatch but fireground belongs on analog.
 

lafd55

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What I meant is, that isn't all XTS portables P25 capable but not always programmed digital. We had XTSs that were convential 800 until we switched to digital. I have to agree, sometimes digital voice doesn't always sound great, it's been getting better where I am though, Town of Colonie P25. All in all it all depends on what radios the departments have in NYC. I know transit just got APXs those they are digital, FDNY has XTSs so those are digital. I don't think NYPDs Vertexes are digital capable, and I don't know what DSNY uses.
 

cackis

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Yes, the XTS3500's are P25 capable but used in analog. I'm not sure about the Flashcode of the new XTL's that are going in the rigs. Years ago you could get the XTS and Astro radios in analog only but nowadays I believe all XTS1500, XTS2500, and XTS5000 portables must be purchased with a minimum flash of P25 conventional, at least when purchased under a NYS OGS contract, but can still be used in either analog or digital mode. The APX radios are digital capable but the NYPD does not use digital. I don't have any experience with P25 mobiles.
 
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lafd55

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Yes the new trucks are getting the newer XTLs, saw them in one of the new Rescues last year. So I'm guessing NYPD surface units are the only ones in the public safety field without P25 capable radios as I saw a Thread about transit getting APXs replacing their Sabers, time to get ahead of the ball NYPD, lol.
 

tbendick

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FDNY fire and ems just went to narrow band for dispatch, at least 10 Years before you see another change. You won't see us use digital on the fireground, useless in that application.
 

cackis

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No, the FDNY did not use digital on 9/11. At that time we were still using VHF fireground radios (Saber and MX series portables) and VHF dispatch channels. UHF came along in 2003 I believe and we tried digital on our fireground channels for a short time with terrible results and quickly went back to analog
 

n2nov

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didnt fd use digital during 911.

The FDNY digital debacle on the fireground HTs was March 2001. The XTS HT's were pulled and reprogrammed as analog. They had just finished the testing of the analog UHF HTs a few weeks prior to 9/11. They were scheduled to be redeployed to FDNY in October 2001, but then you know what happened. That's why FDNY was still using VHF during 9/11.
 

APX7500X2

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Digital in 2001 on an XTS3500 and digital today on say an APX6000 are nothing alike.
A properly programmed APX6000 in digital will work better on the fireground than any analog radio ever will.
Problem is finding someone who can do it. Motorola can't even tell you how to program it correctly, but people out there know how to do it and it sounds great.
 

tbendick

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As a nyc firefighter. I can tell that unless we are forced don't expect to see digital on the fire ground.

APX radios may sound nice but can't fix the problems. Digital echo, multiple radios,etc.
 

n2nov

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Digital in 2001 on an XTS3500 and digital today on say an APX6000 are nothing alike.
A properly programmed APX6000 in digital will work better on the fireground than any analog radio ever will.
Problem is finding someone who can do it. Motorola can't even tell you how to program it correctly, but people out there know how to do it and it sounds great.

Sounds like a salesman. :)
 

GTR8000

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A properly programmed APX6000 in digital will work better on the fireground than any analog radio ever will.

Yep, most likely a salesman with a statement like that. Definitely not anyone who has ever fought a fire in their life, that's for sure. It's easy to make those sort of claims from the comfort of a controlled environment or the showroom floor. :roll:
 

902

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No, the FDNY did not use digital on 9/11. At that time we were still using VHF fireground radios (Saber and MX series portables) and VHF dispatch channels. UHF came along in 2003 I believe and we tried digital on our fireground channels for a short time with terrible results and quickly went back to analog
The digital debacle began on 14 Mar 01. B/C John Joyce has his account, as well as photocopies of trouble reports from March, 2001 in the book Radio Silence F.D.N.Y. (ISBN: 0-9759021-3-X). Warning, Joyce gets into politics and goes tangential on procurement policy and mixes up 9/11 radio systems. By the time 9/11 came about, FDNY had gone from UHF digital back to what they had on VHF. A known quantity.

There can be a lot of s-house quarterbacking, but at the end of the day, the safe statement here is that nobody should ever assume that one kind of radio is just like another kind, even if they look the same. Common use of the FDNY included the use of pretty much 1 fireground channel (153.83) which relied heavily on the capture effect of FM. A closer transmitter would take out a more distant one. You would hear heterodyne with some of the traffic if the signals were roughly the same signal strength. They also used a technique called "feedback assisted rescue" (FAR) technique where they keyed their mic and members cranked up their volumes. As they got closer, there would be howling feedback. It worked good for them.

Digital radios cannot tolerate simultaneous transmissions. In fact, two digital transmissions are mutually destructive and you won't hear anything. The Queens mayday incident on 19 Mar 01 at Myrtle Ave, Richmond Hill may possibly be attributable to several simultaneous uses within the same area. The mayday transmission was NOT received on HIS fireground, but ANOTHER fireground using the same frequency 10 blocks away.

Joyce included a memo from B/C Jay Fischler to Chief of Operations Daniel Nigro dated 19 Mar 01 (same day as the above incident), which stated that echo sounds affected clear transmissions. These echos are the digital signal processing and vocoding/ demodulation of data. FAR cannot work in that environment. This means all of the training and user anticipation that this technique would work in a linear fashion was negated.

It's not unique to FDNY, though. While FDNY was simplex digital, thankfully the FF was rescued. Not so fortunate on another incident. On 16 Apr 07, Prince William County, VA experienced a communications-related LODD using digital trunked radio for fireground. Notice the digital radio "gollywobbles" (pixelated audio) at certain points, as well as echo.
http://blog.tcomeng.com/wp-content/...am_county-loddreportvideosection2-jan2008.wmv (WARNING! Graphic!)
http://blog.tcomeng.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/prince_william_county_fire_loddreport-jan2008.pdf

APX guy, you make a bold statement. Tell me why the APX6000 is better than an analog radio and why an AMBE vocoder is better than the human mind for dealing with environmental noise. I have an open mind, but when there are statements like that, they need the support of evidence.
 
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W2NJS

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NFPA says "Use only FM, not digital, for fireground comms."
Experience of many proves, "Use only FM, not digitall, for fireground comms."
So why do so many departments still insist on using digital for fireground comms?
Virtually everyone still has FM simplex channels available in their radios.
I'm stumped for an answer to the question.
(This thread has drifted pretty far off topic)
 
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