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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2012, 5:09 PM
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Thank you for correcting the dates in my post, things all start to blend together after a while. The present analog UHF fireground plan has provided the best communications since I've been on the job. VHF wasn't bad but the UHF radios are much better in buildings. Digital was horrible. I'm not against digital for certain applications but judging by my experiences and the reasons listed in the last few posts I couldn't agree more that fireground belongs on analog simplex. Newer technology isn't always better for certain applications, no matter how "good" the newer radios are.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2012, 6:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W2NJS View Post
NFPA says "Use only FM, not digital, for fireground comms."
Experience of many proves, "Use only FM, not digitall, for fireground comms."
So why do so many departments still insist on using digital for fireground comms?
Virtually everyone still has FM simplex channels available in their radios.
I'm stumped for an answer to the question.
(This thread has drifted pretty far off topic)
Just to clarify after doing some research, the National Fire Protection Association does NOT require analog simplex communications on the fireground. NFPA 1221 Standard for the Installation, Maintenance, and Use of Emergency Services Communications Systems - 2010 edition states "9.3.1.4* A tactical communications channel shall be capable of operating in analog simplex mode." This is the part of the Code that is enforceable. The "*" indicates there is explanatory information in the Annex. The information in the Annex states "A.9.3.1.4 - This requires the availability of the analog simplex mode but leaves it to the discretion of the AHJ as to when the use of analog simplex mode is required at an incident." The information in an Annex of any NFPA Code (or Standard) is ONLY for explanation only, and is NOT enforceable. This information can be viewed online at NFPA 1221: Standard for the Installation, Maintenance, and Use of Emergency Services Communications Systems. You will need to create an account at NFPA.org, but then you can view (not print or save) most Codes and Standards.

My personal opinion is to use analog simplex on the fireground, but the above information is what NFPA has published.
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Old 05-20-2012, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by cackis View Post
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Thank you for correcting the dates in my post, things all start to blend together after a while. The present analog UHF fireground plan has provided the best communications since I've been on the job. VHF wasn't bad but the UHF radios are much better in buildings. Digital was horrible. I'm not against digital for certain applications but judging by my experiences and the reasons listed in the last few posts I couldn't agree more that fireground belongs on analog simplex. Newer technology isn't always better for certain applications, no matter how "good" the newer radios are.
I didn't mean to correct you, except for the date, you are basically right. Sorry. I used to be a FF across the river from you and I've been following (and trying to participate in, when I can) radio safety since Hackensack Ford. I ended up working in radio. The 'this particular digital radio works better on the fireground than any other analog radio ever did' torqued me. For one, if it has some magical thing that nothing else has, it makes me ask what's being held back and why wasn't operational capability ever incorporated into previous models.

Unless the politics change, this will be a moot point in 9 years, anyway. All of the T-Band frequencies are frozen now, and are set to be auctioned in a decade. If that happens, there will be little choice for many agencies but to go digital. The problem is that everything we're talking about for NYC is not part of the heir apparent solution (LTE). No simplex, no analog, no one-to-many messages, no off-network. No guarantee of network integrity (unless there's big bucks thrown at it). We'll see.

Stay low.
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Old 05-20-2012, 8:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alarms50 View Post
Just to clarify after doing some research, the National Fire Protection Association does NOT require analog simplex communications on the fireground. NFPA 1221 Standard for the Installation, Maintenance, and Use of Emergency Services Communications Systems - 2010 edition states "9.3.1.4* A tactical communications channel shall be capable of operating in analog simplex mode." This is the part of the Code that is enforceable. The "*" indicates there is explanatory information in the Annex. The information in the Annex states "A.9.3.1.4 - This requires the availability of the analog simplex mode but leaves it to the discretion of the AHJ as to when the use of analog simplex mode is required at an incident." The information in an Annex of any NFPA Code (or Standard) is ONLY for explanation only, and is NOT enforceable. This information can be viewed online at NFPA 1221: Standard for the Installation, Maintenance, and Use of Emergency Services Communications Systems. You will need to create an account at NFPA.org, but then you can view (not print or save) most Codes and Standards.

My personal opinion is to use analog simplex on the fireground, but the above information is what NFPA has published.
NFPA has no authority to compel any action. The muscle the NFPA has is through the Insurance Standards Office (ISO) rating, and in court where the standard is waved as the standard of care, usually about why it was circumvented somehow contributing to some kind of catastrophe. I was involved in some of the previous comment periods, along with a few other RR members. The intent on this one was to insure that some infrastructure independent failsafe capability was in the equipment - AND that it should be ready to use. The intent was that this be operationally configured, not just buy a piece of equipment that can do it and never bother planning how to use it and program it. That's the parsing of lawyers, and a lesson learned to be more careful in phraseology. During that comment period, there were also proposals submitted to have engineered coverage in very large complexes, and multiple talkpaths, too. Unfortunately, we lost one of the leaders in that "in-building" technology (Mr. Jack Daniel [that's his real name, he was one of the best]) this past year.

It doesn't matter what NFPA says. Here's the point that needs to be brought home: drill on how to use radios. Get to know your radios and what their limitations are. Get to know them as good as any other tool your life depends on. Develop a radio failure plan, make it work, and exercise it frequently. You tell the vendor what you want and make them give it to you, not have the vendor tell you what you need and try to take existing capabilities away.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2014, 6:32 PM
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What is NAC code for FDNY Fireground A9?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2014, 11:04 PM
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Use 293
The channel is never used for the most part.
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Old 08-20-2014, 11:19 PM
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Ok thanks.
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Old 08-21-2014, 9:28 PM
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Isn't 293 a universal code for digital? I once read it on a forum here.
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Old 08-22-2014, 8:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newsnick175 View Post
Isn't 293 a universal code for digital? I once read it on a forum here.
No, $F7E is "like a digital carrier squelch" in P25 mode. It will unmute the receiver to any NAC received. $293 is the default NAC that comes from the factory default codeplug that ships with the radio. If you put $293 in, it will only unmute to $293. If they use that, then great. If not, you won't hear anything and will have to use a decoder program.
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Old 08-22-2014, 9:39 AM
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Just so there is no confusion
FDNY is NAC293
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