Interoperability Available - Not Implemented

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DaveNF2G

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There are a number of new radio systems that represent an attempt at a technological solution to a human problem. I'm referring to the "interoperable" P25 systems being built, where the old communications stovepipes still exist. This is not because the new radio systems lack the capability to eliminate them, but because the users lack the will to do so.

I will cite one simple example.

Saratoga's new P25 trunked system has several talkgroups that are designated for police/fire/EMS interoperability. Police agencies do respond to fire and EMS calls. Yet never once have I heard a dispatcher notify a responding police unit of the talkgroup that has been assigned (by personnel in the same room) to fire and EMS at the scene.

I don't mean to imply that police and fire people absolutely must talk to each other on the radio during every mutual response incident. But the means to do so, while technologically present, are not being made available to all of the first response agencies, apparently due to missing dispatch protocols.

What happens when a fire official wants to tell the police something, or vice versa? Exactly what has always happened regardless of the available technology - the information gets relayed through a dispatcher.

All of the fancy equipment in the world will not change human behavior all by itself. Somebody needs to address policies and procedures as well.
 

newsnick175

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Yes! I agree. But worries me is the "party line" effect. With no control users will jam interop channels to the point of uselessness. I'd rather see the unified command system used. Face to face works best.
 
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DaveNF2G

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I agree about using ICS. It would solve just about every interop issue in the country. But nobody would make any money from it. Not to mention agencies that simply will not change the way they deal with other agencies (e.g. NYPD and FDNY).
 

jeepsandradios

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I see the same thing in 2 of the counties I operate. All radios in both counties have countywide channels that are to be used between law/fire/ems/dot yet most law enforcement do not scan this channel, nor will talk on it for an event. Some of this is policy, but mostly law has always been too good to talk to others. I will say in Oswego County this is working much better, even though now it appears the EMS and Fire cannot seem to ever talk (if the radio isn't in scan they don't hear us). I see different system all over NY but even if the technology exists, doesn't mean the user will use it. Its sad that all this money has been spent in my area and there are still issues with this.
 

Mtnrider

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Over the years i have been making sure our local town has even the simple highband connectivity in there vehicles....a few have a clue whom to call direct. Others dont know or care...So i can just see what will happen when the county puts there 26 million dolla system on the air.... Case in point County calls for a Highway supervisor or any truck...."any truck" answers.....he says we'll have a super contact you....Super gets on the air after "any truck" calls him....(meanwhile i am sure county hears this) and he say Ok i'll call them....radio is silent.....guess he used the phone...
 

jvdet

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Interop what?
There is near, me 3 PD's on same channel, had same pl; at any given time they might have average 3 units each shift , Town A/B share dispatch but town C recently upgraded to a repeater and narrowbanded - and would constantly cut out tx from A/B so A/B change pl and each A,B, C, now they cut each other out but dont know it
 

jim202

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Interop what?
There is near, me 3 PD's on same channel, had same pl; at any given time they might have average 3 units each shift , Town A/B share dispatch but town C recently upgraded to a repeater and narrowbanded - and would constantly cut out tx from A/B so A/B change pl and each A,B, C, now they cut each other out but dont know it

You have just got to love the intentions of the radio shops that do this. In my opinion, they do it to get trouble calls. This way they get trouble calls, show up and then say they find nothing. Bill the agency for a round trip travel time and go home. Great way to financially line their pocket until the agency attorney hears what is going on.

Until the department heads pull their heads out of the sand and understand just what is going on, all the agencies will never solve the issue.

Like has always been said, we have the technology to fix any radio problem. But we can't fix stupid.
 
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DaveNF2G

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As KB2ZTX and others have pointed out, here and elsewhere, law enforcement is usually the major culprit when it comes to interoperability failures. They really just don't want it.
 

Danny37

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I can account for NYC that PD and EMS were usually tight nit group compared to FD. EMS and PD always run into each other since both agencies are overworked and extremely busy. From what I understand is that EMS used to radio privileges over PD when assistance was needed but when NYC EMS and FDNY merged those radio privileges were taken away and given to supervisors. When I Volly EMS many EMTs and medics carry a second radio to monitor PD, since PD handles the 911 system the calls are usually heard sooner over PD frequencies rather than EMS and FD. these systems are available on the conventional side as well as the trunked side but are never put to use. Sometimes I wonder how much quicker it would be to get an important message across just by switching channels rather than doing the Mary go around between dispatchers.
 

newsnick175

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Now all this would work fine if the the rank and file first responders were encouraged to use their street smarts and coordinate among them selves, but what would the supervisors and managers have to do?
So you see interoperability will never happen because individual action is not welcomed.
 

Danny37

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Now all this would work fine if the the rank and file first responders were encouraged to use their street smarts and coordinate among them selves, but what would the supervisors and managers have to do?
So you see interoperability will never happen because individual action is not welcomed.

Exactly! Why isn't there any interoperability training courses for PS workers? Heck there isn't even radio training given, which is really badly needed in NYC. If PD wasn't so bankrupt in the 90s, EMS would be apart of the NYPD.
 

cg

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In general, Interoperability between different types of agencies at the street level sounds neat and pretty from behind a desk (or salesman's brochure) but in my experience, it is unnecessary. Interoperability between different FDs or between different PDs is far more important.
Some very small jurisdictions that are distant from other services with a low call volume may need to all be on a common frequency, but those are exceptions to the rule.
Keep the police off my fire channel and I will stay off theirs.

chris
 

Danny37

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In general, Interoperability between different types of agencies at the street level sounds neat and pretty from behind a desk (or salesman's brochure) but in my experience, it is unnecessary. Interoperability between different FDs or between different PDs is far more important.
Some very small jurisdictions that are distant from other services with a low call volume may need to all be on a common frequency, but those are exceptions to the rule.
Keep the police off my fire channel and I will stay off theirs.

chris

I disagree, in areas where PD and EMS run into each so many times during a shift, EMS needed PD for combating patient or PD needing EMS for a injured MOS. This is very common in NYC. However I do understand the opt between different agencies such as the NCPD and the NYPD, many times the 105 PCT in queens and Nassau county PD in Long Island get border line calls where a robbery occurred in their jurisdiction and the suspect fled into the other side. Than it becomes a Mary go around between both dispatchers to get messages across. Which would be much easier if both agencies had a mutual channel or had radio privileges to transmit on their frequencies. Now that Nassau county is going digital now, that's out of the hat.
 

cg

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So if I am looking for a police officer, I would change to a channel (where I had no idea of the traffic that was on it) and request a unit to respond to a call, explain what I needed. In the mean time, what happens on my channel while I am off the air there? Someone calls and they get no reply. Much easier to let the dispatcher do what they are supposed to do. Notify other agencies of the need for resources.

Keep in mind that this has to work for everybody. Including that person you hate to hear key up the radio on your own system.

One of those works on paper, doesn't work in real world things.

chris
 

SteveC0625

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So if I am looking for a police officer, I would change to a channel (where I had no idea of the traffic that was on it) and request a unit to respond to a call, explain what I needed. In the mean time, what happens on my channel while I am off the air there? Someone calls and they get no reply. Much easier to let the dispatcher do what they are supposed to do. Notify other agencies of the need for resources.

Keep in mind that this has to work for everybody. Including that person you hate to hear key up the radio on your own system.

One of those works on paper, doesn't work in real world things.

chris
+1

And realistically, what might be possible in a large metro area like NYC is usually next to impossible elsewhere. I think we all have to remember that a large part of this country is not in the major cities. It's just not possible to train low volume volunteer Fire and EMS how to correctly operate on somebody else's radio channel or system. They don't want to learn about these things. Having the dispatchers in the middle works just fine and they won't change that.

Going back to Dave's original example, for all its high tech and high cost new radio system, Saratoga County still can't or won't notify agencies in neighboring counties how to interact with them. I've been trying for over a year to get the right frequency for non-digital operations with Saratoga County EMS. Nobody over there returns phone calls or answers letters. Phooey.
 

gralston73

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Going back to Dave's original example, for all its high tech and high cost new radio system, Saratoga County still can't or won't notify agencies in neighboring counties how to interact with them. I've been trying for over a year to get the right frequency for non-digital operations with Saratoga County EMS. Nobody over there returns phone calls or answers letters. Phooey.

Have you ever tried to contact Saratoga County on 155.715? They claim to be able to patch 715 into the P25 system...
 

szron

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From personal experience from my area what actually works is PD/FD/PSAP combined dispatch room (for multiple agencies). PD-FD talk on a single TG would be a mess, different procedures, call signs etc.

What is really important and is utilized at least in my area is PD being able to switch to surrounding cities' PDs for chases etc.

If X PD officer chases a guy into Y city and Y city officers just push a button to switch into X talk group it works. They do it because it's simple and effective. Fun begins when one city decides to move to a different system and all... (yes I'm talking to you Canton!).

System I monitor has dedicated Mutual Aid so called "common" channels that I know are programmed into both PD and FD radios. But I never heard them utilized. There's no point really if the dispatchers are just sitting right next to each other and they have a better grip on interoperability and agency cooperation.
 

SteveC0625

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Have you ever tried to contact Saratoga County on 155.715? They claim to be able to patch 715 into the P25 system...
715 was dropped by DOH BEMS a year ago as the state-wide EMS channel. Nothing has really replaced it to my knowledge.

Even if it was still "the" channel, I'd be very reluctant to try to establish that kind of patch in the middle of a major incident, especially when most of the EMS responders outside of Saratoga County really haven't been schooled in this capability. That sort of thing needs to be hammered out in advance and every one in the system trained. The head of the EMS squad over that there we regularly do mutual aid with won't return my calls or respond to written letters. The ball's in their court.

I suspect it's a good example of how things work between many counties and agencies in this state. Scratch that. I know it is a good example.
 

FrankRaffa

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From personal experience from my area what actually works is PD/FD/PSAP combined dispatch room (for multiple agencies).

Now that we're in the same [very large] room with EMS and PD I can say from personal experience that being in the same facility accomplished nothing but putting 300 disgruntled employees in the same space.

IMO, interoperability is a myth created by DHS and perpetuated by hardware vendors.
 

GTR8000

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IMO, interoperability is a myth created by DHS and perpetuated by hardware vendors.

Amen.

"Interoperability" is a post-9/11 buzzword which, unfortunately, has taken on a life of its own. Far too many people think that an absolute disaster will result if every agency in the universe isn't on or doesn't have access to all the same frequencies/talkgroups.

I've found that many of those people have little to no real world experience, or have been out of the game for quite some time and fail to fully understand the clusterf*%k that can ensue if every Tom, Dick and Harry has access to every resource.

Don't get me wrong, having some degree of common resources can be valuable, but it can't and shouldn't replace a well trained dispatcher, nor should it be used for routine day-to-day operations.

You cannot have every agency switching to the same frequency/talkgroup and trying to manage resources on their own, it doesn't work. As previously stated, if you're on some sort of "interop" frequency/talkgroup, then you're not on your primary frequency/talkgroup. No one is minding the store, so to speak.
 
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