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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-15-2013, 8:54 AM
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This is where a wiki could easily be used, as it can be updated very quickly.

Once the list of 'unknown' talkgroups has been cleanly identified, all of them can be submitted en-masse.

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-15-2013, 8:58 AM
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I see a pattern to the Fire/EMS activity:

A Fire or EMS unit will call the Fire Dispatcher on TG8001. When the Dispatcher replys, a Patch ID is set up. This ID changes constantly. Only a few units show up on TG8001 so these may be radios that are on the 700 system. There is also some activity on other, higher numbered, 80xx TGIDs that I think are individual departments. I have not been able to positively ID any of these due to the garbled audio on most transmissions.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 10-15-2013, 9:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ka3jjz View Post
This is where a wiki could easily be used, as it can be updated very quickly.

Once the list of 'unknown' talkgroups has been cleanly identified, all of them can be submitted en-masse.

Mike
While a wiki could be of some value, the issue is not "unknown" TGs. The big problem is Patch IDs that are variable and apparently change each time the dispatcher sets up a patch.

The Sheriff is fairly stable since the patch is left up most of the time but if it is reset for any reason it seems to vary to values between 64570 and 64579. The FIre/EMS dispatcher handles several conventional frequencies and so is constantly selecting channels on his console. The Fire/EMS dispatcher Patch ID seems to rotate in the range 64500-64569 incrementing upward each time it is set up.

Scanners track the Patch ID rather than the actual TGID whenever a patch is active so "Wildcard" is the only option at this time to monitor Fire/EMS. This could be a longstanding problem since it is reported these services will not fully migrate to 700 until 2018.

If there is a recognized value of a wiki, and others will use and support it, I would be happy to contribute to it.

Frankly, I have found most RR wikis to just be repositories of dubious, contradictory and obsolete information.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k2hz View Post
Frankly, I have found most RR wikis to just be repositories of dubious, contradictory and obsolete information.
Agreed. This is especially true with NYS related wiki articles, as so much of the info was blindly dumped into them from NF2G's website without any vetting prior to doing so. Quite a bit of that info is outdated and obsolete at this point, and likely had accuracy issues to begin with.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:31 AM
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Then make this article with the (patched) talkgroups an exception to the rule...'nuff said

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Old 10-15-2013, 6:48 PM
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I apologize if I ruffled any feathers! That wasn't my intent!

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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2013, 3:10 PM
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Ontario has made a change in the patch arrangement.

Sheriff's and NYSP mobiles that are on 700MHz can now be heard on TG 7001 and are not repeated on VHF. The VHF mobiles and the dispatcher remain on a Patch ID that changes.

This is similar to Fire/EMS. 700MHz mobiles can be heard on TG8001 but the dispatcher is on a variable Patch ID.

Geneva PD is now active on TG 7505
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2013, 9:01 PM
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The Sheriff's patch has now been down for several hours and the dispatcher is now on TG7001 along with the
mobiles. There has been no activity on 154.815 since the patch was shut down.

I don't know if this is permanent.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2013, 3:28 PM
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The 2-way Sheriff's patch to VHF is back up again which means all Sheriff units on the trunked system are back to the variable Patch ID instead of 7001.

I guess we have to live with uncertainty until they shut off the 154.815 permanently.
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Old 10-19-2013, 8:24 PM
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I haven't updated my Uniden BCD396XT since my old Windows PC died a year ago. (Can someone please release some Mac software for scanners?!?)

Finding this thread had me dig in to set up this system by hand, something I've never attempted. With some help from Easier to Read BCD396XT Digital Scanner Manual and pure blind luck, I have audio from the new Ontario 700 system. I'm more surprised than anyone.

Using a Uniden BCD396XT with a Watson WSMA-881 whip, I'm getting everything loud and clear from Victor on the Ontario North channels. A huge improvement over the old system. Ontario portables are coming through, Canandaigua, Geneva. Even Fire is listenable now.

I'm seeing some changes to the talk groups from what has been posted above. Instead of piling on more information, I'll wait until the dust settles with this system. It's sounding great though. Totally nerding out. Thanks for posting the info and updating the database.
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Old 10-21-2013, 7:55 AM
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This morning 154.815 has gone silent again. The 700 system patch is down and Sheriff dispatch and mobiles are heard on TG7001.

My previous comments about specific ranges of Patch IDs for Sheriff and Fire have proven to be invalid as the IDs continue to change. Apparently the next available 645xx Patch ID comes up whenever any dispatcher sets up a patch. In other words, the Patch ID means nothing to the scanner user. You have to use Wildcard or ID Search mode to follow the communications whenever a patch is established.
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Old 10-22-2013, 4:52 PM
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154.815 is back on the air today but now it is direct rebroadcast of TG7001 on the 700 system. No more variable Patch IDs. If this continues, you can hear all the Sheriff/Police activity on 700 on the actual TGIDS.

Fire/EMS continues to be constantly changing Patch IDs for the Dispatcher side of the Fire/EMS dispatch TG.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 6:21 PM
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154.815 is still on the air but for the last several days it has just been keying with no audio when TG7001 is active.

There are several more TGs on 700 I have not been able to identify due to the poor reception at my location.

TG 7011 and 7024 sound like Law car to car but I can't identify the users. 7024 might be NYSP cars.

TG 8005, 8006 and 8007 may be Fire or EMS Ops channels but I can't make out much of what is being said.

TG8040 and 8062 appear to be individual VFD "Talk". I have heard both radio checks and what appears to
be department officers discussing training plans.

The Fire Dispatcher replies to TG8001 are still on constantly changing Patch IDs. A lot of TG7001 and TG8001 activty is also going out over all 3 Monroe County zones probably due to Ontario County units being in the area especially EMS units with transports to Strong Hospital.

If anyone can confirm additional TGIDs, please submit to the RRDB.
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Old 10-31-2013, 9:55 AM
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There is a lot of testing today on the upgraded 453.3125 Fire paging and dispatch channel which I believe goes into service tomorrow. Very strong signal here in Rochester.

The Fire Dispatcher is now heard on TG8001 when responding to units on the 700 system but still on the Patch IDs when simul with Low or VHF.
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Old 10-31-2013, 12:02 PM
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Ontario Fire is now dispatching on 453.3125 which is cross-banded to TG8001

TG8004-8006 are "Ops 4 -6"

Fire house sirens are being switched over from Low Band to UHF.
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Old 11-03-2013, 4:05 PM
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I'm picking up Hopewell dispatch on 64507 and also hearing finger lakes ems on the system.

Last edited by w2csx; 11-03-2013 at 4:24 PM..
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2013, 5:31 PM
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Anything on a 645xx Patch ID is part of the crossband low/high/uhf/700 patch for the Fire/EMS channels.

The Fire/EMS Patch ID rotates between 64500-64599 changing every time the Fire Dispatcher re-selects the patch.

When they cut over the new UHF system on 10/31 TG8001 was a normal crossband link between the 700 TG8001 and the UHF Dispatch repeater. Since then, they are back to patching in the Low and VHF systems which results in the constantly changing Patch ID that scanners can't follow unless you are in Wildcard or ID Search mode.

If you are programmed for TG8001 you only hear the mobiles actually on the 700 system or, if there is no patch to LOW or VHF, you also hear the UHF system. But, once the Dispatcher adds Low or VHF, it changes to the variable Patch ID as far as your scanner is concerned.

Confusing? Yes, but it is not a problem for the trunked system users. The Control Channel broadcasts the Patch ID info and associated TGs so a trunked radio can follow it automatically. Unfortunately, it is another apparent design deficiency in the way scanners handle P25 systems that the scanner only sees the Patch ID when it is present and not the actual TGID that you want to monitor.

Ontario may be unique in the way the Harris system increments the Patch ID every time it is set up and the fact that the Dispatcher is frequently dropping and re-setting the patch.

It is something we will probably have to live with as long as Ontario continues to patch the old Low Band Fire and VHF EMS channels into the new UHF/700 system. The Sheriff's TG7001 has been fine since they eliminated the patch to the old VHF system.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2013, 7:23 PM
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It depends on how the system is configured.

For example:
You see the "patches" come and go depending on the dispatcher because they are also using simul-select. (transmitting on 2 or more resources at the same time.) When a Harris console creates the group, the system assigns a static "group" ID when the list is created by the dispatcher. When the dispatcher unselects the group members, it goes away. In Motorola, this only happens when they PTT, then dissolves the group when the PTT is complete.

For true patching, there are a few ways. "Hard" patching, console patches and "soft" patches.
Hard patch is either back to back radios or system configured patches that don't have a patch ID (No 64xxx)
Console patch is just that, when a console patches, and gets an assignable group ID (64xxx)
Soft patch is a patch within the system that an operator can enable or disable, and has an assignable ID (64xxx)

A simul-select is a "Dispatcher to many" feature, so it doesn't actually tie the groups together to allow other groups to hear one another.
A patch is where groups ARE tied together to allow communication across them.

Hope that helps clear the confusion a bit...

tpg
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2013, 8:09 PM
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tpg - That is a good description of what is going on in Ontario.

There seems to be a "hard" patch between Geneva PD that is still on their VHF system and TG7505 so there is no Patch ID involved and it is transparent to the scanner listener.

This also seems to be the case when the new Fire 453.3125 was tied to TG8001 as long as no form of simul or patch was in effect with Low and VHF. Once the Dispatcher began to either simul or patch with the legacy systems, the variable Patch IDs came back.

Watching the system on Unitrunker, you can see the Patch ID get knocked down when the Dispatcher changes something and then re-established with a new ID when responding to a call. It mostly seems to be "simul-select" so the dispatcher audio is going out over all bands but there is no repeat of the simplex mobiles from Low or VHF on the 700 & UHF system or vice versa.

It is a messy situation since the "Fire Dispatcher" is still just one person handling Low Band Fire, VHF EMS and the new combined UHF Paging/Dispatch and the 700 trunked system TG8001. This means a lot of pushing of select buttons on the console vs a dispatcher that is dedicated to a single group or channel. There are good reasons why you don't always want to be in simul-select mode and other times when it is needed so a "hard patch" is not a good solution.
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Old 11-07-2013, 9:15 AM
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So maybe I missed this,why would they set up a new uhf system and cross band to the new 700mhz system? Seems like money that could been spent else where.
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