Westchester's Proposed P25 Phase II TDMA System

[firepilot]

In Westchester Counties 2014 FY Budget, that was released yesterday, one of the capital Items reads:

The Department of Information Technology oversees the design, implementation, and management of large mission critical radio systems used by the Departments of Emergency Services, Public Safety, Public Works, and Transportation. These systems are used by first responders and other governmental personnel to ensure safety of life and property and enable delivery of vital services to the citizens of Westchester County. This capital project will begin the process of specifying, designing, procuring, and implementing replacements for the Trunked Systems, the F1 and F3 systems and at least the radio component of the CAD/AVL systems so that transitions to the replacement systems can be completed before the end of 2018.

From: http://www3.westchestergov.com/images/stories/budget/2014/2014ProposedCapital_SectionC1.pdf

$6 Million is budgeted for this project.

I've heard rumors and seen on certain forums that Westchester County is trying to build a Digital 700 MHz P25 Phase II TDMA System to replace its current 800 MHz Trunking system.

Anyone have any info on this project?

 

[GTR8000]

I assume you're reading the posts on EMTBravo? If so, I explained in full detail what the system is going to be in that thread.

By the way, Seth's post wasn't entirely accurate. Yes, $6 million was budgeted for the system in 2014, however if you read the PDF you'll see that they're budgeting $6 million per year for the next 5 years for a total cost of $30 million.

PS - Westchester's current Motorola Type II system is not 800 MHz, it's UHF T-Band.

 

[firepilot]

I assume you're reading the posts on EMTBravo? If so, I explained in full detail what the system is going to be in that thread.

By the way, Seth's post wasn't entirely accurate. Yes, $6 million was budgeted for the system in 2014, however if you read the PDF you'll see that they're budgeting $6 million per year for the next 5 years for a total cost of $30 million.

PS - Westchester's current Motorola Type II system is not 800 MHz, it's UHF T-Band.

Yes, that's the post I'm referring to.

You explained it very well, but this is a different forum, just seeing if anyone else had other info on this project.

And thanks for the correction.

 

[GTR8000]

The system is in the infancy stages of planning, so there's not going to be much detail at this point. It will definitely replace the current Motorola system, which was already old technology when it was installed.

Here are the FCC applications if you want to see what frequencies they're licensing. Note that the applications were returned for some minor errors and will need to be corrected and resubmitted before the licenses can be granted.

ULS Application - Trunked Public Safety 700 MHz - 0005962907 - WESTCHESTER, COUNTY OF

ULS Application - Trunked Public Safety 700 MHz - 0005962908 - WESTCHESTER, COUNTY OF

Don't be fooled by the fact that the locations on one application mirror the "North" zone of the current system, and the locations on the other mirror the "South" zone. All nine sites will be part of a single countywide simulcast.

 

[firepilot]

Thanks for the info! I'm excited for this new system, even though its a few years away from reality.

I know its early, but I got a few questions:

1) Will paging still be on 46.26 MHz?

2) Will Liberty Lines/DOT stay on the current system or join the new system?

3) Will any Law Enforcement join the new system (County PD, Etc...)?

4) What type of digital radios will they plan on using for portables, mobiles and bases?

5) Will the current UHF fireground system remain?

 

[GTR8000]

None of this is gospel, so we'll have to wait to see how things shake out...but here are my own answers to your questions (basically, my opinions based on personal experience and what I've heard so far).

1) I can tell you that paging will not be on 700 MHz or the new system, because there are no 700 MHz pagers and you can't page over P25. It's a safe bet that paging will remain on low band for a while to support existing pagers and base stations. The county may also try to find a VHF or UHF frequency to eventually move paging to. That is what Rockland did, they are now simulcasting Fire Paging over 470.800 in addition to 46.18

2) The current system is going to be physically replaced with this system, and will be shut down once the new system is operational and users have migrated to the new system. That being said, anyone on the current system will almost certainly have to migrate to the new system.

3) Yes, the County PD will be on the system. No word yet on whether local law enforcement will be on the system as well.

4) Motorola APX radios. They are the only Motorola radios that support Phase II TDMA, so if they stick with Motorola, that series is the only choice. There are several models within the APX series, so which specific ones will be purchased depends on needs and budgets.

5) It's a pretty safe bet that Fireground will remain on UHF, same as Rockland. You do not want to conduct interior fireground operations on a trunked system of any kind, which is why UHF analog simplex remains the best choice.

 

[anesti]

So as of right now there is no Scanner that picks this up,right??

 

[GTR8000]

So as of right now there is no Scanner that picks this up,right??

The PSR-800 would. The two new Uniden models announced yesterday will. This system is years away from being built, so it's completely inconsequential at this point.

 

[radiomanNJ1]

Then they can talk directly to the new Rockland Co. system.and Ct.

In Westchester Counties 2014 FY Budget, that was released yesterday, one of the capital Items reads:



From: http://www3.westchestergov.com/images/stories/budget/2014/2014ProposedCapital_SectionC1.pdf

$6 Million is budgeted for this project.

I've heard rumors and seen on certain forums that Westchester County is trying to build a Digital 700 MHz P25 Phase II TDMA System to replace its current 800 MHz Trunking system.

Anyone have any info on this project?

 

[radiomanNJ1]

Chauffeur6 on #5 why do you say not to conduct interior operations on a trunked system? The number of agencies doing so everyday today is extremely high. If they don't they have to to spend extra money to buy 7000s. A properly designed system should not be an issue. A shortcut system is not the answer.

Since the tband is scheduled to go away this makes sense. Will it happen? A lot can change between now and then. Of course if it does go away Rockland will have to make another major change but again if and when are the big questions.

None of this is gospel, so we'll have to wait to see how things shake out...but here are my own answers to your questions (basically, my opinions based on personal experience and what I've heard so far).

1) I can tell you that paging will not be on 700 MHz or the new system, because there are no 700 MHz pagers and you can't page over P25. It's a safe bet that paging will remain on low band for a while to support existing pagers and base stations. The county may also try to find a VHF or UHF frequency to eventually move paging to. That is what Rockland did, they are now simulcasting Fire Paging over 470.800 in addition to 46.18

2) The current system is going to be physically replaced with this system, and will be shut down once the new system is operational and users have migrated to the new system. That being said, anyone on the current system will almost certainly have to migrate to the new system.

3) Yes, the County PD will be on the system. No word yet on whether local law enforcement will be on the system as well.

4) Motorola APX radios. They are the only Motorola radios that support Phase II TDMA, so if they stick with Motorola, that series is the only choice. There are several models within the APX series, so which specific ones will be purchased depends on needs and budgets.

5) It's a pretty safe bet that Fireground will remain on UHF, same as Rockland. You do not want to conduct interior fireground operations on a trunked system of any kind, which is why UHF analog simplex remains the best choice.

 

[tbendick]

These Departments are not doing so in the best interest of the members in an IDLH. It has been studied over and over and proven %100 that this is NOT SAFE!!!
Fireground communications in an IDLH should be on a simplex analog channel. Please NO DIGITAL

Departments that want to listen from a distance can do so but use one of the methods that does not place members in danger.

Such as cross band repeaters which take fireground and then sends it over the trunked system.
Some examples. FDNY uses a mobile repeater to rebroadcast fireground on the trunked system they have.
Greenwich CT. Fireground is linked to the trunked also.

Chauffeur6 on #5 why do you say not to conduct interior operations on a trunked system? The number of agencies doing so everyday today is extremely high. If they don't they have to to spend extra money to buy 7000s. A properly designed system should not be an issue. A shortcut system is not the answer.

Since the tband is scheduled to go away this makes sense. Will it happen? A lot can change between now and then. Of course if it does go away Rockland will have to make another major change but again if and when are the big questions.

 

[Skooter92]

Why not to use trunking or digital for FG use....

Fireground communications, especially for interior firefighting, should be on analog non-trunked channels for several reasons:
1) Firefighter "mayday" or distress calls need to be heard the first time, every time. With a trunked system, there is a real danger that due to poor signal or system congestion a user will get a system busy tone as opposed to an immediate voice channel to the outside of the structure. No matter how weak/poor the signal, the chances of someone monitoring the system and hearing a distress call on the scene if it's actually able to go out on analog conventional simply by transmitting without the chance of being denied/interrupted by an intermediary are far better.
2) Digital voice degrades/becomes unintelligible at a higher threshold than analog voice. There is a better chance of recognizing a distress call with weak/poor signal on analog voice at a scene than digital voice.

 

[radiomanNJ1]

Once again, you have never used a well designed trunk system. Do you want one or two people heaing the MAYDAY call or everyone on scene and/or dispatch?

A well designed system is a good system.

Until you have heard or used one then you cannot appreciate it. Even the unions have stopped their nonsense about trunked radio. I have seen career firefighters when the system was in the testing stage go into hospials, office complexes, and verify that it works. It works for cops everyday dealing with fights, disputes and what not inside buildings why is it different for fire fighters?

In a trunked radio system the radio id is assigned and is easily identified as to who is using the radio.
No one has said digital however digital is here and working nationwide for public safety.

 

[62Truck]

What the City of Poughkeepsie does on their fireground channel they use simplex but the freq they use for simplex is the input freq for their Operations channel, even though their radios are programmed for simplex anyone listening to the ops channel can hear it, they do it that way so the dispatchers can keep tabs on what is happening on the fireground IE Maydays and so on.


You can have a well designed system all you want but lets face reality nothing is ever perfect, Most police agencies in my county have the capability to switch from repeater to simplex on their radios on the Tac channels.

In a fireground setting its better to keep everything simple, last thing a FF wants to deal with is why his radio isn't working when he is calling for help. And to be honest The whole world doesn't need to hear the Mayday.

 

[tbendick]

Don't care how good a trunked system is. There are too many variables and when dealing with an IDLH , simlex is the best.

You can still have the world listing just do it with a mobile repeater or something. There is also no issue with radio id's, we use Motorola TPS system and it works fine and we can repeat our fireground as needed.

Most Maydays are found by members operating in the area of the distressed firefighter. So the people who need to hear that mayday are the ones operating nearby.

 

[APX8000]

What does an analog fireground simplex channel have to do with the question the original poster asked regarding Westchester's Proposed P25 Phase II TDMA System? Answer: Absolutely nothing.

I would like to remind people what "Thread Hijacking" is.....(see the example I just listed above).

Lets keep it on topic please or my sarcastic banter will turn to uncontrollable drooling while I yell at the computer and close the thread.

 

[jim202]

Once again, you have never used a well designed trunk system. Do you want one or two people heaing the MAYDAY call or everyone on scene and/or dispatch?

A well designed system is a good system.

Until you have heard or used one then you cannot appreciate it. Even the unions have stopped their nonsense about trunked radio. I have seen career firefighters when the system was in the testing stage go into hospials, office complexes, and verify that it works. It works for cops everyday dealing with fights, disputes and what not inside buildings why is it different for fire fighters?

In a trunked radio system the radio id is assigned and is easily identified as to who is using the radio.
No one has said digital however digital is here and working nationwide for public safety.

Let me step in here an make a few statements on this topic. First of all, maybe in your area of operation you have 100 percent coverage in the basement of a structure. But and I say this with some very well know people that will stand behind me, there is probably no system installed in anyplace in the country that will have 100 percent coverage in the basement of all buildings in the radio trunking coverage area. Your lucky if you can even get 95 percent coverage from the street. Let alone from even inside the street level of most buildings.

If a fire chief is comfortable with using a trunking system for fire ground communications, he hasn't had anyone trapped inside a building trying to call for help. Sure there are departments using a trunking system for fire ground operations. But and this is a big but, what are they going to say when one of the department members gets killed inside a building and his call for help was either garbled or was never heard? There are many radio recordings of this exact event occurring around the country. They are available to listen to just by doing a simple search on the internet.

I have over 35 years in with the fire service with several department over that time. It is always on the mind of the fire chief just how he will react to loosing a member of his department. to make matters even worse would be to have a radio failure to add to the issue. I have seen close calls even with an analog simplex operation at a heavy involved structure fire.

Maybe you just need to step back and think about the position your putting your fellow fire fighter members in. Maybe you need to talk with your fellow fire fighters and get their feedback on the radio system they are using. Then come back here and tell us just how you feel about a trunking radio system for in building fire fighting. Especially a below ground operation.

 

[APX8000]

Closed. If you guys want to start a separate thread in the appropriate forum regarding fireground operations, please do.