NYPD OCCB2 going P25

[blaze]

OCCB-2, like CW4 last year, is being moved to P25. Testing has started. Will be mostly (but not exclusively) encrypted.

NAC is EF3

 

[blaze]

I'm also reliably informed that DET-2 is being moved to P25 as well, NAC for DET-2 is EF1, and will be (mostly) encrypted.

 

[nyscan]

Interesting. PC & IAB probably won't be far behind. What radios? VX-824?

 

[blaze]

Interesting. PC & IAB probably won't be far behind. What radios? VX-824?

Right; CMD and IAB are planned, but not in this round.

Current;y P25 channels will be limited to a few to special commands, and will use an adhoc mishmash of different radios. I don't think the VX824 can do CQPSK, which may be an issue since these are conventional multicast systems (which don't play well with C4FM).

 

[FDNY216]

Division

Will the p 25 phase be started with the divisions for everyday dispatch ?

Also the t band give back is another factor where might they move any ideas?

 

[blaze]

Will the p 25 phase be started with the divisions for everyday dispatch ?

No, it's just these five special commands in the current plan.

 

[KA2ZEY]

Will it be phase I or phase II? Or does Phase II not apply to non-trunking P25?

 

[SpectrumAnalyzer]

NYPD Going P25?

Interesting wording "In the current plan", somebody in 1PP procurement must be drinking the Kool Aid, sad thing is in the end of this travesty when this sham is eventually fully built out & implemented department wide & it will because NYPD never does anything small, it's not the suits who will suffer when the chickens come home to roost, as always it will be the MOF's (I absolutely will not ever refer to the men, the REAL men of NYPD as MOS's) who will pay the ultimate price for being forced to use radios utilizing inferior & widely documented defective technology & may GOD have mercy on their souls.

Interesting article here, somewhat biased but still a good read for what it's worth & to all good men of NYPD remember: As a wise old sergeant once said: There's "Justice" & then there's "Just us".

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2011/08/security_flaws.html

 

[riveter]

Will it be phase I or phase II? Or does Phase II not apply to non-trunking P25?

Phase II requires precise timeslot sync between system and subscribers, which is provided by a trunking control channel. Also note that it's TDMA- Time Division Multiple Access, implying multiple nets per frequency divided by time, a function of trunking.

All conventional P25 is Phase I.

 

[nyscan]

Interesting wording "In the current plan",

Do you have details or a link to the current plan?

 

[SpectrumAnalyzer]

NYPD Going P25?

No, it's just these five special commands in the current plan.

You probably need to direct your query to blaze as I was quoting his comment, take care & enjoy your weekend.

 

[minasha]

Dpcain,

Are you saying that conventional P-25 transmissions can "only" be phase 1 ?

Thank You

 

[Thunderknight]

Dpcain,
Are you saying that conventional P-25 transmissions can "only" be phase 1 ?

Yes, I will concur with that. There is no Phase 2 capabilities for non-trunked transmissions.
All conventional P25 is Phase 1.

 

[SCPD]

Yes, I will concur with that. There is no Phase 2 capabilities for non-trunked transmissions.
All conventional P25 is Phase 1.

I third that, phase 2 is trunking only.

 

[blaze]

Interesting wording "In the current plan", somebody in 1PP procurement must be drinking the Kool Aid, sad thing is in the end of this travesty when this sham is eventually fully built out & implemented department wide & it will because NYPD never does anything small, it's not the suits who will suffer when the chickens come home to roost, as always it will be the MOF's (I absolutely will not ever refer to the men, the REAL men of NYPD as MOS's) who will pay the ultimate price for being forced to use radios utilizing inferior & widely documented defective technology & may GOD have mercy on their souls.

Interesting article here, somewhat biased but still a good read for what it's worth & to all good men of NYPD remember: As a wise old sergeant once said: There's "Justice" & then there's "Just us".

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2011/08/security_flaws.html

It's just the five citywide special command channels (3 so far, 2 more later) going P25, none of the precinct or SOD / TFC / etc dispatch channels. Of course, 1PP is free to drink some other KoolAid in the future, but that's the current plan. I would be very surprised if the rest of the system changed any time soon.

I'm not sure what defective technology you're referring to. There are key management issues with P25 security, especially when OTAR is used, but the NYPD system does not use OTAR and the encryption is being used on a very small scale. There are also denial of service vulnerabilities with the P25 waveform that makes it vulnerable to jamming, although in practice these do not appear to be being exploited in the wild (and are a bit more difficult to perform on a simulcast system like NYPD's).

I have some familiarity with the research that you cited, but perhaps you know more than I do.

 

[62Truck]

It's just the five citywide special command channels (3 so far, 2 more later) going P25, none of the precinct or SOD / TFC / etc dispatch channels. Of course, 1PP is free to drink some other KoolAid in the future, but that's the current plan. I would be very surprised if the rest of the system changed any time soon.

I'm not sure what defective technology you're referring to. There are key management issues with P25 security, especially when OTAR is used, but the NYPD system does not use OTAR and the encryption is being used on a very small scale. There are also denial of service vulnerabilities with the P25 waveform that makes it vulnerable to jamming, although in practice these do not appear to be being exploited in the wild (and are a bit more difficult to perform on a simulcast system like NYPD's).

I have some familiarity with the research that you cited, but perhaps you know more than I do.

Plus some of the these channels they are already using encryption.

 

[blaze]

Plus some of the these channels they are already using encryption.

All of the current NYPD crypto capability is on the (currently 3, eventually 5) P25 special command channels, plus the simplex TAC channels. They got rid of the DVP stuff a while back.

 

[PJH]

Points to be made:

P25 Phase 1 is generally known as 9600 standards trunking using FDMA (what we knew was normal trunking, one talkgroup per radio channel) using the IMBE codec.

P25 Phase 2 is generally known as 9600 standard strunking used TDMA trunking, allowing 2 or more talkgroups to use the same freq, aka celluar style channel reuse with the AMBE codec.

Conventional P25 is just that. Same setup as analog radios, just using the IMBE codec.

Conventional communications are not known as "Phase 1", but as Conventional P25 for the most part.

Its all a tad more involved than that, but thats the real basic breakdown.

Names, letters and manufactures marketing and changes over the past many years have murked it all up a bit.

 

[nyscan]

All of the current NYPD crypto capability is on the (currently 3, eventually 5) P25 special command channels, plus the simplex TAC channels. They got rid of the DVP stuff a while back.

Is it user selectable or permanently hardwired? In other words will it be 100% encrypted on these channels or
only when it is enabled?

 

[blaze]

Is it user selectable or permanently hardwired? In other words will it be 100% encrypted on these channels or
only when it is enabled?

It's unclear. They have a variety of radios, and will likely have a variety of configurations as well. Nothing is widely deployed yet; only a few special commands have CW4 capability so far.