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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2010, 9:07 AM
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Originally Posted by rexgame View Post
Why can't they just post bill? If I can do it with ambulance, and police, why not fire? Oh wait, already been to plenty of places around the globe that they do that....
Because they provide fire protection for $75 a year, not on a per call basis. A pretty good deal if you ask me. If an EMS provider said we will provide EMS coverage for $75 a year and you don't pay, you wouldn't see an ambulance. Don't pay your car insurance and you have a wreck, you won't see a check to fix your car.

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Old 10-06-2010, 9:28 AM
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I thought many people in this nation wanted government out of their lives. In the recent past, some have attempted to privatize government. Guess what? It does not always work. For instance, Texas had to take control of a state jail facility run by private enterprise. I can recall having a Texas Ranger approach me at the Woodman Unit concerning an inmate who gave up dirty officers who were trading sex for KFC. In this facility, the cinder block wall had a hole in it to allow offenders to freely go from male to female populations. Do people want to privatize the military, Congress, law enforcement, or fire fighters? Isn't this a form of socialism?
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Old 10-06-2010, 9:33 AM
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It's obvious that the almighty dollar has plagued most of the world including several people on this board. But, it's an indisputable fact that the day a fire victim can look a firefighter in the eyes and ask for help in an emergency and be denied that help when it's readily available (and ON SCENE), it's a sad and disgusting day.

From their website "Member of the West Tennessee and Western Kentucky Mutual Aid Pack, and Automatic Mutual Aid with City of Fulton, Kentucky on all structure fires within the corporate city limits."

I wonder if those calls are free or if they swipe the credit card for $75 before they pull a hand-line.....
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Old 10-06-2010, 9:45 AM
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When I watched the news, a fire fighter on the scene stated that they had no choice because they were following the law. I am reminded of the Bush bailout of Wall Street and the CEO's who received huge bonuses. They contended that they were legally bound to give these bonuses. Hmmmm.
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Old 10-06-2010, 9:55 AM
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Because they provide fire protection for $75 a year, not on a per call basis. A pretty good deal if you ask me. If an EMS provider said we will provide EMS coverage for $75 a year and you don't pay, you wouldn't see an ambulance. Don't pay your car insurance and you have a wreck, you won't see a check to fix your car.

Mike
No, they do not provide "fire protection," they provide fire response, insurance provides "fire protection." Just like insurance provides accident protection for my car, just like you said. Why would I pay for services not rendered? Again, around the country and around the globe, people get billed for police, fire, and ems services after their use. Seems like in an area without a standard response mechanism, it would be an easy fix here. Hell, I don't pay my doctor until after he sees me and treats, I don't pay a restaurant until after they feed me.
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:20 AM
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So pay after, in a town that may see 3 fires a year, may have 3 trucks roughly 1 million tied up in equipment. First fire = $333,000 bill. Ok we go with the bill after idea, I like it.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:57 AM
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Why would I need 3 trucks if I only had three fires a year? But that's not here nor there, anyone with access to a pc, word-processor or typewriter can type up a grant proposal, and the someone will happily cut you check to purchase all of the equipment a little town needs. Everyone from DHS to Wal-Mart has fire grants.

And we're talking about an area already covered by another agency. Just bill for services. It's already done plenty of places.
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Old 10-06-2010, 1:13 PM
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Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8350i/4.6.1.294 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/126)

This event made my local radio stations noon news in Edmonton AB!
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Old 10-06-2010, 2:25 PM
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Of course, the same thing might apply to the fire fighters seeking medical help one day. "Do you have your insurance card? Sorry, but we don't accept American Express. Too bad. Would you like to speak with a Chaplain. They work for free."
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Old 10-06-2010, 3:03 PM
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He must have. I known a few people there and they even have to pay the $75 except theirs is included in there property tax. To me a fire department should not be ran as a business but as a free public service. More than 80% of America is covered my a volunteer fire department and they do the job they same way and even sometimes better than the paid departments.

Free public service? are you for real? our $742K quint wasn't funded by pancake breakfasts and brat sales. Our $400K migration to the county trunked system wasn't funded by an anonymous donation. How about that $100 oil change that both our ambulances just got, or my gear that has been repaired three times since last December. What about the pump that began to fail on our spare engine, do you think some business just donated their time and parts to fix it as a tax write off? Our residents pay property taxes which include Fire, EMS, and Law enforcement. If these residents opted to break it down and pay only what they felt was needed... then the fire dept has every right to let the house burn.

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REALLY??? Are you serious?? the taxes you pay are for public service which includes fire, ems, and police. Billing after the fact is how EMS and police get there money why not the FD?? I may be only 24 yrs old but I have been around the fire service my entire life. It runs in the family and there is just no way anyone in my familt or even anyone I know could just sit back and watch it burn. Those guys n that fire department who just watched it burn are a disgrace to the fire service. Firefighters are suppose to protect life and property at all cost. I bet those firefighters who parished in the twin towers never thought about money when they ran in. Fight the fire, do the rescue, provide medical then worry about the money.

So your whole family has been in the fire industry.... So if your Chief, who answers to the mayor btw, tells you not to goto work... are you going to defy his orders? that's insubordination, easily grounds for termination. As much as I would love to be putting that fire out because you and I both know its a pretty good adrenalin rush, your helping someone out, and overall its fun... I still have a boss to listen to. And don't bring 9/11 into this, apples to oranges. Those guys on 9/11 were not told to not help out. These firefighters were told to NOT put this fire out.

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Originally Posted by jim202 View Post
After being a fire fighter for over 35 years and do a considerable amount of travel around the country
for my job in radio communications, this issue we are talking about seems more an issue with the
way the county is functioning. Maybe the focus should be brought to bear on just what sort of fire
protection the county has or does not have. It would be hard for me to believe that there is not
some sort of county fire operations.

With that said, you also have to think about just what it costs to roll out a single piece of apparatus
to any call. You have or should have at least two people on that vehicle. You have insurance on
that vehicle, you have maintenance on that vehicle and you have fuel expended on that run it
just got sent on. The cost for a single call for each vehicle can run into several hundred dollars
easily. If you want to place a dollar value on just rolling a vehicle out the door of a fire station, then
by all means put a dollar value on each call. That way you can see what the true cost or value,
depending if your on the receiving end or the supplying end of the service.

Sure the fire department is a service and has to be run as a business. That's why there is a budget
that you have to put into place to run the department on. Am I in support of the blackmail that
this department uses to fund it's operation? I would rather see this issue resolved in a property tax
by the entity that is responsible for the area. If there is no fire department that is covering that
area, then it is the responsibility of the responsible agency to then contract with another
agency to supply that fire coverage.

To me a, lawyer could have a field day with the county and city bodies involved here and the
outcome might be a real surprise for all involved. Not being a lawyer, I will sit back and yield to
their activities and wait for the courts to turn the results into a settlement. This may be more
of an issue with the insurance company going after the county for damages before it is all over.
very well put.

Last edited by 70cutlass442; 10-06-2010 at 3:06 PM..
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Old 10-06-2010, 3:13 PM
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The local government should tax every household an additional $75 and pay that lump sum to the neighboring department. In turn, if someone did not pay the fee (taxes), they could be arrested or lose the property when it was seized.
Post incident billing would not work as there is no law requiring everyone to have homeowners insurance. The homeowner would in all likelyhood not be willing to pay a bill that could easily be in the thousands. Then people would be whining when the guy lost his house in a legal judgement to pay the bill.
Police, Fire, EMS, roads, schools all cost money to provide. The majority of citizens, through their elected officials, decide what level of service they want AND are willing to pay for. That area apparently wants a fire department that may or may not show up. They got it.

chris
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Old 10-06-2010, 4:54 PM
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I always thought the motto was "to protect lives and property"?

Please pay before pumping!!

In my days back as Fire Chief if the resident was a dues paying member, it was no charge. If the home owner wasnt down for paying their dues then we billed them. We still handled all fires the same. I have never heard of part-time firefighters!
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Old 10-06-2010, 5:10 PM
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This just recently happened in Cali I believe. Someone mentioned, "this is why you pay taxes", actually they don't pay taxes, the people and towns that go with this type of system don't wan't to pay taxes. There are many systems all accross the county that do this. Home owners don't want property tax, so they have to pay to be part of a "Fire Group" of some type. You will see more of these fee based systems the more property owners scream about paying taxes.
.
Yes, it did. There was an island in the Delta that was under no fire protection service. The residents pay no taxes for fire service, and have not organized any volunteer force. The island caught fire and destroyed several homes and hundreds of acres. Cal-Fire and CalEMA monitored, but did not assist.

Residents fight blaze in Delta area not served by firefighters - Sacramento News - Local and Breaking Sacramento News | Sacramento Bee

You don't want to pay the tax or fee, don't expect the service to be provided. In the case the OP posted, perhaps the city fire department would have been better off not offering the service to anyone. Would have saved them some negative PR that they don't deserve.
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Old 10-06-2010, 5:41 PM
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Is this really any different than State Response Area teams (like Cal Fire in CA) telling folks if they don't clear the brush around their places and keep the junk down, they WILL let it burn in a wildland fire. Happens all the time. Kind of a reality "put up, or shut up".

Just a thought.
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:14 PM
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Heres a challenge for everyone that says the FD was in the wrong:

Don't pay your garbage bill next month. When the garbage man comes to get the neighbors trash, run up to him and see if he will take your trash too. If he says no you didn't pay your bill, then ask him if he will take it if you pay your bill next week.

Come back and tell us your results.

And if you say this doesn't compare... then I implore you to explain to me how garbage collection is a less essential service than the fire department.
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:51 PM
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Although I am a career firefighter for a large fire dept I am as well a volunteer. I think we are all getting a little off track here because no one is keeping all the facts in mind.

1) This is a city fire dept who has absolutely no obligation to this part of the county. Being that they have zero fire protection the FD was nice enough to supply it to them for a very very reasonable cost and a low one I might add. They had no duty to respond. I see that point of the argument and if you can't then wake up because it's not all glitz and glamor in this country. Not to mention if you watch the interview of the home owner he clearly states NO I DID NOT PAY THE FEE I THOUGHT THEY WOULD STILL RESPOND! Which tells me he blatantly knew of the charge however chose to try and stick it to the department.

2) Now this bring us to the moral obligation....Yes I think the majority of us say we would have put this fire out just keep in mind that I'm sure it wasn't easy for these guys to just stand around and watch. Given that they probably only make several jobs a year I'm positive that they were very eager to go play. When given an order you follow it....That is if your family is most important to you. I know that as much as I am a fireman and love the job, it comes second to my family. Someone stated earlier that its insubordination. You are absolutely correct my friend! WHo's to say these guys would have not been suspended without pay. For some thats a crushing blow and when it comes to placing food on my childs dinner table. Guess what I'm gonna do what it takes regardless. It's always easier to sit back here and play I woulda, coulda or they shoulda when we weren't there so lets not beat them up and concentrate on the real fact here...That is why the hell the local government doesn't take proper care of it's citizens!!
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:43 PM
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Thumbs down This is NOT AMERICA? Right? Tennessee, oh then it's OKAY.

I really think that ALL Public Safety agencies, EMS services, garbage etc., should have daily access to a National Data Base that indicates whether WHO EVER they have to SERVE or RESPOND to has FULLY fulfilled there obligation in PAID ALL required TAXES and such, registered to VOTE and VOTED, responded to JURY DUTY and served, properly separated there trash and recyclables, etc. SO ALL agencies can stop wasting time in PROTECTING and SERVING the community, BECAUSE they were NOT RESPONSIBLE members of the community at large. HOW dare they expect 100% public services if they FAIL any ASPECT of what was listed above. Ridiculous? Let a house BURN OVER $75.00 FEE???? In AMERICA, 2010?

SORRY, to let a families home to BURN to the GROUND is JUST absolutely UNBELIEVABLE, only in AMERICA the land of the MIGHTY $$$...I do NOT have ANY RESPECT for any of the ALLEGED Fire Fighters who stood there a watched. What pieces of work.Serve and Protect, (BS) OVER $ 75.00? Fight the FIRE and, AND BILL THEM. But, in America we STAND our GROUND, boy do we EVER... Sorry, NONE of the arguments I have seen says anything to support the actions NOT TAKEN. PERIOD.... I will bet that we really look good around the world for this STUPIDITY...Over a damn $ 75.00 fee...we showed them, didn't we...F I G H T the FIRE and BILL them, the INSURANCE company, WHOEVER!!! NO, LET IT BURN....MAN, WE SHOWED the COMMUNITY and the WORLD what BAD ***'S we are in the good old USA ...over $75.00!!

This post tick you off??? TO BAD...It IS what it IS...A IMMATURE ACT by ALL those who RESPONDED and SUPPORTED this RIDICULOUS action by ALLEGED ADULTS given ADULT RESPONSIBILITY. OVER $75.00...GREAT SHOWING..It's America at it's FINEST, eh? STUPIDITY at IT'S BEST, BRAVO!!! I really am sure if it WAS YOUR HOUSE you WOULDN'T just shrug your shoulders and SAY OH WELL, what the HELL....WOULD ANY OF YOU??
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Old 10-07-2010, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by JPSan View Post
This post tick you off??? TO BAD...It IS what it IS...A IMMATURE ACT by ALL those who RESPONDED and SUPPORTED this RIDICULOUS action by ALLEGED ADULTS given ADULT RESPONSIBILITY. OVER $75.00...GREAT SHOWING..It's America at it's FINEST, eh? STUPIDITY at IT'S BEST, BRAVO!!! I really am sure if it WAS YOUR HOUSE you WOULDN'T just shrug your shoulders and SAY OH WELL, what the HELL....WOULD ANY OF YOU??
Wow your post was hard to read.

I am tired of people blaming the fire department, and the fire fighters. Its not their fault that two things happened here:

1. The county will not provide fire protection to households in unincorpriated areas, nor will they allow the charge to be added to the tax bill.

2. The subject here decided he didn't want to pay his $75 tax, and paid the price for it.

Responsiblity for this house burning down falls squarely on the county, and the homeowner. Period.
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Old 10-07-2010, 12:36 AM
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I really think that ALL Public Safety agencies, EMS services, garbage etc., should have daily access to a National Data Base that indicates whether WHO EVER they have to SERVE or RESPOND to has FULLY fulfilled there obligation in PAID ALL required TAXES and such, registered to VOTE and VOTED, responded to JURY DUTY and served, properly separated there trash and recyclables, etc. SO ALL agencies can stop wasting time in PROTECTING and SERVING the community, BECAUSE they were NOT RESPONSIBLE members of the community at large. HOW dare they expect 100% public services if they FAIL any ASPECT of what was listed above. Ridiculous? Let a house BURN OVER $75.00 FEE???? In AMERICA, 2010?

SORRY, to let a families home to BURN to the GROUND is JUST absolutely UNBELIEVABLE, only in AMERICA the land of the MIGHTY $$$...I do NOT have ANY RESPECT for any of the ALLEGED Fire Fighters who stood there a watched. What pieces of work.Serve and Protect, (BS) OVER $ 75.00? Fight the FIRE and, AND BILL THEM. But, in America we STAND our GROUND, boy do we EVER... Sorry, NONE of the arguments I have seen says anything to support the actions NOT TAKEN. PERIOD.... I will bet that we really look good around the world for this STUPIDITY...Over a damn $ 75.00 fee...we showed them, didn't we...F I G H T the FIRE and BILL them, the INSURANCE company, WHOEVER!!! NO, LET IT BURN....MAN, WE SHOWED the COMMUNITY and the WORLD what BAD ***'S we are in the good old USA ...over $75.00!!

This post tick you off??? TO BAD...It IS what it IS...A IMMATURE ACT by ALL those who RESPONDED and SUPPORTED this RIDICULOUS action by ALLEGED ADULTS given ADULT RESPONSIBILITY. OVER $75.00...GREAT SHOWING..It's America at it's FINEST, eh? STUPIDITY at IT'S BEST, BRAVO!!! I really am sure if it WAS YOUR HOUSE you WOULDN'T just shrug your shoulders and SAY OH WELL, what the HELL....WOULD ANY OF YOU??
You live in a fantasy world.
MANY places across the globe don't provide you with free services. Try going to South America or Africa and see how fast your house burns down.

Try running a city with the attitude you have about money, you won't have your city long. Very simple.

Go ahead and defy your superiors and put that fire out. It will be the last one you put out as a member of that department.
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Old 10-07-2010, 12:53 AM
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Default What we have here is a FAILURE to comprehend..Human decency & COMPASSION

Whatever...A whole lot of pathetic people with some really pathetic attitudes over the value of property and very basic HUMAN decency...and a friggin $75.00 fee.

Hope a lot of you are never in a situation that requires a judgment call, a basic call to save you, your family or property OVER a FEE.

A lot of you are scary in your hardcore, lack of understanding.

AGAIN, don't the people in Tennessee, KNOW how to BILL some one for services RENDERED AFTER the FACT??? It is done a whole lot of times in city, towns and villages in NORMAL America.. Or are they just ALL IDIOTS.

This was NOT trash pick up.
This was not a water bill.


IT was a house fire, HOUSE FIRE where someone was losing ALL they had.
AGAIN...what do you NOT UNDERSTAND about BILLING them for services after the FACT?????


Again, pathetic people supporting an absolute PATHETIC attitude over SOMETHING THAT COULD TAKEN CARE AFTER THE FACT..With a bill. And SAVED a HOME and a FAMILIES stuff! WHAT IS so difficult to comprehend about that??? No, tough, bad *** types got to prove a point...They won..Family without a home or possessions. Over 75 dollars. Could of been BILLED after the FACT. Has it SUNK IN? YET?

I said what I felt needed to be said..I will not respond any further to create a "flame war"...
Any further argument over this is as immature as WAS the the failure to fight a fire and save a families home...over $75.00 fee...


Good Night and God Bless those who are too DENSE to UNDERSTAND "BILL THEM FOR SERVICES RENDERED"...SAVE the HOME...again it ain't garbage pick up...A family LOST it all. should have paid there fee, it wasn't...FIGHT the FIRE and AGAIN...B I L L them...idiots one and ALL.

I DO feel sorry for a lot of you...and your TOTAL LACK of HUMANITY over something so STUPIDLY simple...MAILING a BILL? Saving a Home, A FAMILIES grief and LOSS?

Good Luck. Good Night.

End of Transmission..............
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