Salisbury

[brey1234]

Firefighters working a fire at a millwork facility in Salisbury (NC) tried to use their radios to coordinate operations--and call for help--but many transmissions didn't get through, according to a report the city has issued on the incident. Two firefighters died in the huge blaze, which grew quickly and generated lots of smoke. The report noted that the radio were purchased in 2001, but haven't been annually tested. Officials said bad communications contributed to poor hose placement, which didn't allow the firefighters to follow any hoses outside when they became trapped. Read the multi-part report here (https://www.salisburync.gov/IncidentReport/index.html), looking at Parts 4 and 5 in particular.
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What type of radio system is being used???

 

[FireCop]

Bob, Salisbury & Rowan County use a Motorola 800 Mhz Trunking system. The overwhelming majority of talkgroups on the system are analog. I cannot speak specifically to Salisbury FD using any digital, though I did hear Salisbury PD have used a couple of digital talkgroups. Hopefully, some of members with the know for that system will chime in.

 

[CFP387]

Salisbury PD does use some digital trunks as well as Rowan SD. Salisbury FD and all county FDs only use analog trunks in the system. The radios have been notorious for not transmitting well in certain buildings and the system has several "dead spots" around the county as well. I have never been a supporter of our county going strictly 800 because of these type of problems. Salisbury City needs to go back to VHF fireground channels and leave 800 for county-wide communications. Both the city and county FDs have VHF frequencies that the county still pays liscence for so why not bring them back up and let us use them?

The new radios that the City has purchased were reported to cost between $5500 and $6000 a piece. They are also talking about buying a portable repeater that can be carried on a truck and used on the fireground for communications in and around a few block radius. I say save the money and use VHF handhelds. The powers that be in Rowan Emergency Management thought that when they bought into this 800 system it would solve the entire county's communications problem. In my opinion, it only created more of a problem. There are more dead spots than there have ever been before and there is only one tower site. The only tower site we have is on Al's Knob in Granite Quarry. When we were VHF county-wide, we had several repeater sites in strategic areas throughout the county. Boost the wattage on the 800 repeater site and get the city some VHF handheld radios.

 

[CCHLLM]

You're right. If they're going to continue to use 800, they need to build out the system with at least multiple receiver sites just as the VHF system had and provide analog simplex tactical frequencies. Without that, any performance comparison of 800 to VHF is apples to oranges.

We all need to remember that too many comm failures are the product multiple causes, not just one factor. The path is usually poor planning leading to poor comm procedures coupled with user ignorance leading to blaming the equipment for the real causes.

If the equipment is inadequate, go back to the poor planning in the beginning. If the operation of the equipment is poor, go back to the poor comm procedures and user education.

If both are poor, the question is why the hell didn't the powers-that-be put together a communications plan and determine what equipment would be required to accomplish it instead of throwing money at a collection of radios instead of a radio SYSTEM?

Goes back to the old maxim: Those who don't actually use or understand said equipment are always the ones charged with the processes of providing said equipment for those who have to suffer the end result, good, bad or indifferent.

 

[yardbird]

I agree with Wes!

Face it the SalisburyRowan System is old. I think it and Highpoint were one of the first 800 Mhz systems to be introduced in this area of North Carolina.

I remember most of the users of this system were carrying the old STX (Brick) portables.

When I worked in the radio shop for SHP. I remember only a few people had the MTS-2000's and SHP Troopers were the only ones in Rowan County to have XTS-3000'S on the system.

I also remember the time I was asked to help find some radios for a fire department, well I could find all kinds that would work on the Salisbury/Rowan System but the new problem was finding them that would work on the Cabarrus System as well.

That was a nightmare, so I give up and advised them to contact Motorola for help.

I do know that now there is a variety of mixed mobiles and portables on the system. Our portables and mobiles have the Cabarrus, Rowan and Mecklenburg and soon to be Viper System programmed in them

David

 

[KM4WLV]

Shannon, long time no see. Don't get on to much anymore, hope things are going well on your end !!

As far as the mobile repeater, the city did get it. As far as it being in service, I'm not sure. And what good is it going to do anyway when the radio system in antiquated. Good intentions ( I guess ), but as with emergency management in Rowan County, no follow through.

They did a site study several years ago, and it was going to cost ~ $3 million per site. The county didn't wanna fork out the money, and the city wasn't going to because it wasn't "their" people out there. $3 million seems to be a small price to pay compared to what Justin & Vic paid that day. They were dear DEAR friends of mine, and I have never felt so sick to my stomach as I did that day when I heard the may-day on the radio. I can't ( as I'm sure others can't ) stand to listen to the audio from that day.

The powers to bein Rowan County need to get their a**es in gear and fix this problem.

 

[CFP387]

Shannon, long time no see. Don't get on to much anymore, hope things are going well on your end !!

Yes, Daniel, I've been looking for some posts from you on here for quite some time. But this isn't the only thing that we have to do all day is it?

As far as the mobile repeater, the city did get it. As far as it being in service, I'm not sure. And what good is it going to do anyway when the radio system in antiquated. Good intentions ( I guess ), but as with emergency management in Rowan County, no follow through.

Of course they got it; they get everything else they want too, don't they? Give them time and they'll get all this other stuff that they really don't need. We need 154.085 and 153.77 on the fireground. We don't need anything else. VHF will talk through, in, out, and around all those buildings in Salisbury and anywhere else. The point is this: The powers that be can't swallow their pride and admit that the system we have is inadequate for the territory we're working in. Boost the wattage at the tower tx site or give the city some VHF radios and admit there's a problem with this 1991 technology. I'm not calling names but you know who bought into this system hook, line and sinker many years ago thinking that the "latest and the greatest" would be the answer to our "problem". We never had a problem. The "problem" was all in the heads of those in charge. No matter where you are in our great state, we still need 280 and 340 and that will probably never change.

They did a site study several years ago, and it was going to cost ~ $3 million per site. The county didn't wanna fork out the money, and the city wasn't going to because it wasn't "their" people out there.

That doesn't surprise me. The site study was probably done by people who didn't even know much about our county anyway. That's usually how it works. And the "3 million" figure was probably something they said just so the county commissioners and other planners would turn it down. It's all about politics. Salisbury City knows they have the best of the system and the county is who's suffering. County FDs close to the tower don't have many problems either, but there are others out here who do and they should be able to pick up any 800 and hit the tower without question no matter where they are in the county. Ask any deputy and they'll tell you that 453.05 hardly had any dead spots. That repeater system was built out well with several towers in strategic places throughout the county. They could do that again if they would.

$3 million seems to be a small price to pay compared to what Justin & Vic paid that day. They were dear DEAR friends of mine, and I have never felt so sick to my stomach as I did that day when I heard the may-day on the radio. I can't ( as I'm sure others can't ) stand to listen to the audio from that day.

I was here at work with a small 800 Uniden scanner and I heard the call too. I can't relate to the families of those guys who gave it all but my heart does go out to them. Justin and Vic died happy because they were doing what they enjoyed most. A sad, sad day indeed.

The powers to bein Rowan County need to get their a**es in gear and fix this problem.

Absolutely right, Daniel. But yet again we've got to have someone with the anatomy to admit that there is a problem. Right now, they're just not doing that. A mobile repeater isn't going to be the answer. This entire system needs to be reworked. I highly doubt it will be any better once we get through the all the necessary rebanding. It's an old system that, in my opinion, has never really worked properly since the county built it out and put it in use some 13 years ago.

 

[KM4WLV]

AMEN Shannon !!! You can do what the city did & think spending over $105,000 on new, more "Rugged" radios that will work under water & such, but last I checked, being underwater isn't what killed my friends that day. It doesn't matter how much you spend on radios if the system you have isn't up to par.

I remember back when VHF was still the thing, FD's would pitch a fit back then about having to spend $400 on a new radio, but now they'll drop a couple thousand for an 800 in a heartbeat. Still having trouble wrapping my head around that, lol.

I have heard different people that stick up for the system say " Well just switch over the T/A 1", etc. Thats all well & good, but how many keypresses do you have to make to get there? And what happens when you are on T/A 1 & you need your emergency button??? HMMMMM, it won't work. People say well we have "enhanced" functionality with the 800 system that supports emergency alarms, trunking, phone interconnect, blah,blah, blah. VHF & UHF will do everything that 800 will if you have a system administrator that will realize that. Not to mention that the city & county are "married to /\/\other /\/\oto".

I still keep the old FG stuff programmed in all my equipment. When I was still with GQFD, the guys would give me so much crap about having a VHF mobile & VHF walkie in my truck, along with my MTS. I told them I had it, so when the system had a level 3 failure, I'd still be able to talk. Of course I got the " thats impossible" speech, and I'd tell them its all computer controlled, IT CAN & HAS HAPPEND BEFORE.

 

[CFP387]

This may look like a private conversation between the two of us, but anyone can feel free to jump in. We're always open for differing opinions, it's just that Daniel and I haven't talked for a while. Let the discussion continue...

AMEN Shannon !!! You can do what the city did & think spending over $105,000 on new, more "Rugged" radios that will work under water & such, but last I checked, being underwater isn't what killed my friends that day. It doesn't matter how much you spend on radios if the system you have isn't up to par.

That's my thoughts exactly. Buying new tires a rusted out, pickup with a blown head sitting in the back yard
ain't going to make it run any better.

I remember back when VHF was still the thing, FD's would pitch a fit back then about having to spend $400 on a new radio, but now they'll drop a couple thousand for an 800 in a heartbeat. Still having trouble wrapping my head around that, lol.

You're not the only one who can't figure out why our city and county government can't spend tax payer's dollars more wisely. We are so far removed from where we were just ten years ago. No one even thinks VHF any more and that's a real shame. The only reason Rowan Rescue has a VHF mobile in their trucks is for repsonding to out-of-county calls. Still yet, everyone needs 280 and 340 capability!

I have heard different people that stick up for the system say " Well just switch over the T/A 1", etc. Thats all well & good, but how many keypresses do you have to make to get there? And what happens when you are on T/A 1 & you need your emergency button??? HMMMMM, it won't work.

And how many keypresses does it take to get back to the dispatch talkgroup? It's hard to concentrate on all that while pulling hose through a burning house! We need a radio where we can push a button and talk to command or dispatch without any doubts! No series of keypresses and nothing so bulky it won't fit into a pocket. I want it to be as simple as turning a knob on top the unit (e.g. minitor pagers) and hitting the button on my speaker mic and talk.

People say well we have "enhanced" functionality with the 800 system that supports emergency alarms, trunking, phone interconnect, blah,blah, blah. VHF & UHF will do everything that 800 will if you have a system administrator that will realize that.

We don't even need phone interconnect. Whoever thought we'd need that was out of their minds because everyone has a celluar telephone now. Water meters can be read by computer at the lift stations as well. That was just another sale tactic to get Salisbury to bite in 1991.

Not to mention that the city & county are "married to /\/\other /\/\oto".

I'm afraid you're right. I saw the writing on the wall when the county became interested in the system back in 1993. I was hoping then that it would never turn into what it has became today. Everyone thinks that they need to carry an 800 radio. Then, everyone wants to bog down the system with needless chit-chat on the private call groups. Use your cell phone and free up the system. "Mother Moto" has done nothing to help us with the problems we have, have they? Do you ever remember hearing them showing us any sympathy for problems we've had in the past?

I still keep the old FG stuff programmed in all my equipment.

And you should keep it too. I'm also glad to see that other county FDs are going back to some VHF traffic. I know that 41 still has VHF radios in their trucks and some other departments have went back and installed them again. That's a sign of some people seeing the light anyway. If only Emergency Management would see that there are so many flaws with this system. We've got 800, but it doesn't have to be county wide. Not everyone has to use it and don't make in "mandatory".

When I was still with GQFD...

I didn't know that you had left the department. Chief 5700 was just by the house last week to pick up some deer corn and we were talking about some things with communications and he showed me the new "rugged" radio and I just laughed to myself. I asked him how he liked it, and he said that he was still trying to get used to it. I don't know if Bill likes it or not.

...the guys would give me so much crap about having a VHF mobile & VHF walkie in my truck, along with my MTS. I told them I had it, so when the system had a level 3 failure, I'd still be able to talk. Of course I got the " thats impossible" speech, and I'd tell them its all computer controlled, IT CAN & HAS HAPPEND BEFORE.

Do you remember when the countywide repeater was 715? The dog pound, fire marshall, radio maintenace and EMS was all on the same repeater with different PLs. How simple was that? What was wrong with that entire setup? When (not if) the 800 system goes into failure again, the only reliable communications we'll have is VHF. Only the smart people still utilize VHF radios. Those in denial have put VHF to rest and one day they'll regret that they made that choice.

Let's see: We still have available 154.07, 153.77, 155.1, 158.865, 154.085, and the 155.715 repeater with a multitude of PL options. Not to mention on the UHF band we still have available the 453.05 and 453.775 repeaters with a PL options. Is that not enough frequencies to communicate with? We're still paying liscence on frequencies that we're not even using!

 

[CCHLLM]

I wouldn't say the Motorola people have no sympathy for your plight. Those are the people that I'm close to, and without talking out of school and getting them or me in hot water, just let it suffice to say that they take their orders from those who are in command of the money and they aren't supposed to let on if they feel differently. That silence absolutely does not mean they necessarily agree with the technical direction things might take.

If there's water and sewer SCADA on the system, the systems are designed for it and that's the way SCADA should be done, but it needs to be on a dedicated frequency pair or pairs, not talkgroups unless there are a limited number of frequencies available. If SCADA has to stay on trunked talkgroups, each site needs to be set up to report only exceptions or when it is polled by the command computer, not when a predetermined interval timer tells it to report. That would nearly eliminate data and voice traffic collisions. Most likely they're currently set up to report by exception and at programmed intervals.

There's a process involved that reduces data collisions during site reporting, but it only functions well if there's not a lot of channel loading. There's also the capability for the main computer and all sites to remain silent and report only urgent exceptions during times of heavy channel loading. Don't know if all that is incorporated in Rowan or not.

But then again I have no dog in this fight, just 40 years in the radio business and fire/rescue.

 

[KM4WLV]

The system is co-owned & operated by the City of Salisbury, & Rowan County. We do have SCADA on the system for monitoring of different utility sites throughout the city & county. There haven't been any issues with data & voice traffic collisions. The problem with the system here is the fact that it is almost 20 years old, and instead of updating & upgrading they just put band aids on things to get by. Hence, putting life safety on the line.

Don't get me wrong, 800 systems have their place and their advantages. But when you have a county that is 512 square miles, and a single site system with a tower that is not quite 600', with repeaters that only TX at 110 watts, you aren't going to get complete coverage. Hell, there's even spots in the county that you can't hit with a mobile, much less a portable. They need to add the other 3 to 4 sites like they have talked about, but the county won't, and the city damn sure isn't going to drop 3 million per site to make it happen.

Its sad when I can be 20 miles from the 800 tower site & not be able to get out on a mobile, but can be on a VHF almost 5 counties away & still be able to talk back crystal clear. Yeah, I know there is more bend the lower you go in frequency, but c'mon. If you want to have to pretty toys to play with the big boys, then you need to spend the money on infastructure to make it work. A $6000.00 radio is only as good as the system it is on.

And another disturbing note about our system. The CEEB's are located at Salisbury PD. There is a T1 line ran from the county 911 center to Salisbury PD to access the CEEB's and then there is a microwave link to the tower site from there. BUT there is NO hardline ( T1, etc ) to the site for backup. So if the microwave link goes down, you lose control of the system. No, I don't have an engineering degree, but use some common sense. There is no redundancy system in place if there ever was that level of failure. Think that would get the pucker factor goin??

 

[CCHLLM]

I know, and in fact, I know a lot more than I've let on about the system in Rowan. I'm in complete agreement that it's definitely a patchwork Pandora's Box and not optimum for what's expected of it, but it's not alone. Simplicity and proper redundancy for reliability purposes always seem to be the first things forgotten when you keep making low budget additions and modifications and calling them "upgrades." A lot of it has to do with whether the additions or modifications get funded by the maintenance budget so you don't have to get bids, or whether it's a new acquisition and costs more than the maintenance budget allows and has to go through the acquisition process.

My question is still why/how do so many of these systems evolve into something that strays so far away from what the desired goal was? And the answer is that sequence of "make do" modifications and low budget additions. The sad thing is that there are some in NC that make Rowan look good.

I'm with you on the VHF vs 800. But then I've personally seen VIPER handhelds work sites that rival VHF range. It's all about design, components, installation, and setup. None of those elements can be compromised and still get optimum results.

 

[KM4WLV]

I know, and in fact, I know a lot more than I've let on about the system in Rowan. I'm in complete agreement that it's definitely a patchwork Pandora's Box and not optimum for what's expected of it, but it's not alone. Simplicity and proper redundancy for reliability purposes always seem to be the first things forgotten when you keep making low budget additions and modifications and calling them "upgrades." A lot of it has to do with whether the additions or modifications get funded by the maintenance budget so you don't have to get bids, or whether it's a new acquisition and costs more than the maintenance budget allows and has to go through the acquisition process.

My question is still why/how do so many of these systems evolve into something that strays so far away from what the desired goal was? And the answer is that sequence of "make do" modifications and low budget additions. The sad thing is that there are some in NC that make Rowan look good.

I'm with you on the VHF vs 800. But then I've personally seen VIPER handhelds work sites that rival VHF range. It's all about design, components, installation, and setup. None of those elements can be compromised and still get optimum results.

Well said. I think the VIPER system being installed is a very good idea, and it seems so far that the state is doing it right. I would gladly sign a bond, or vote for the city & the county ( I pay taxes for both because I live in the city now ) to spend the couple million dollars to update the infastructure. I would have no problem paying a lttle extra in taxes every year if it meant better communications for out people out there. Now I don't expect the "general public" to understand all of this, but those of us who have been out there and had an 800 that wouldn't get out, know where myself & Shannon are coming from.

I know the city has a new telecommuncations department that handles all the radio & phone issues for the city now. I know the man that runs that department, and I actually used to work for him when MOBEX was still in business in Salisbury. He is brilliant when it comes to Motorola, & I just hope the city works with him to get the system where it needs to be.

And Shannon, I thought I told you I wasn't with the FD anymore. I left GQ about 2 1/2 years ago. To many politics, and my kids are getting older and I needed to spend more time with them. PM me sometime, or shoot me an email at daniel.michael57@gmail.com and I'll give you a little more detail into the "politics" I'm talkin about.

 

[CCHLLM]

I once worked for MOBEX, too. The bottom line in having the right person in charge of a comm system is someone who actually has a hands-on knowledge of comm systems. The head of the Winston-Salem 800 MHz system is a former MOBEX/Amerizon manager. In fact he was the one who was in charge of building out the system. He's forgotten more about radio than most of us will ever know.

 

[CFP387]

The problem with the system here is the fact that it is almost 20 years old, and instead of updating & upgrading they just put band aids on things to get by. Hence, putting life safety on the line.

And if you stop and think about it, they were really patching this system not long after the county jumped in with the city.

Don't get me wrong, 800 systems have their place and their advantages.

You're right, Daniel, I'm not against having the TRS either. But it was just not implemented the right way and you and I (and others here) know that the system could be much better if it were utilized correctly. In my opinion, an 800 system's role should be to supplement the county's emergency communictions; it shouldn't ever be intended to be the sole, primary and only form of communication. 800 has it's place and so does VHF.

But when you have a county that is 512 square miles, and a single site system with a tower that is not quite 600', with repeaters that only TX at 110 watts, you aren't going to get complete coverage. Hell, there's even spots in the county that you can't hit with a mobile, much less a portable. They need to add the other 3 to 4 sites like they have talked about, but the county won't, and the city damn sure isn't going to drop 3 million per site to make it happen.

Because the county commissioners have been fooled into thinking that things are okay. For example, you and I both know that the former chairman of the board of county commissioners and the current station 91 chief have been buddies for years. He has completely fooled him into getting anything he wants for the department including new radios. There are too many of "them" saying one thing and not enough of "us" saying another.

Its sad when I can be 20 miles from the 800 tower site & not be able to get out on a mobile, but can be on a VHF almost 5 counties away & still be able to talk back crystal clear. Yeah, I know there is more bend the lower you go in frequency, but c'mon. If you want to have to pretty toys to play with the big boys, then you need to spend the money on infastructure to make it work. A $6000.00 radio is only as good as the system it is on.

It's pitiful and down right embarassing. There's absolutely no excuse not to be able to hit the tower no matter where in the county you are. It's almost as if you have to be able to actually see the tower to hit it.

And another disturbing note about our system. The CEEB's are located at Salisbury PD. There is a T1 line ran from the county 911 center to Salisbury PD to access the CEEB's and then there is a microwave link to the tower site from there. BUT there is NO hardline ( T1, etc ) to the site for backup. So if the microwave link goes down, you lose control of the system. No, I don't have an engineering degree, but use some common sense. There is no redundancy system in place if there ever was that level of failure. Think that would get the pucker factor goin??

And there you have it, folks. Good ol' Rowan county tax dollars at work.

I know, and in fact, I know a lot more than I've let on about the system in Rowan. I'm in complete agreement that it's definitely a patchwork Pandora's Box and not optimum for what's expected of it, but it's not alone. Simplicity and proper redundancy for reliability purposes always seem to be the first things forgotten when you keep making low budget additions and modifications and calling them "upgrades." A lot of it has to do with whether the additions or modifications get funded by the maintenance budget so you don't have to get bids, or whether it's a new acquisition and costs more than the maintenance budget allows and has to go through the acquisition process.

That's the point that we're really trying to make. Instead of trying to get everyone on 800 from the fire chief to the dog catcher, let's make some improvements where the system is much more reliable. And it may be that there's no money to do that, I don't know. What I do know is that they jumped on the band wagon way too soon and way too fast thinking that it was going to solve all our problems. It should have been voluntary for all municipalities and departments to use it. It should not have been a mandatory "law" with deadlines set. What was wrong with small tows using their VHF public works channels? Everyone carries a cell phone.

The sad thing is that there are some in NC that make Rowan look good.

Well if there's a such thing as consoloation, I guess that's it. It's hard to imagine that there are far worse systems out there than the one we have.

I'm with you on the VHF vs 800. But then I've personally seen VIPER handhelds work sites that rival VHF range. It's all about design, components, installation, and setup. None of those elements can be compromised and still get optimum results.

If the system was built out right, then there would be no problem using 800 portables anywhere in the county at any time of day. The VIPER system kicks our system a million times over.

The bottom line in having the right person in charge of a comm system is someone who actually has a hands-on knowledge of comm systems.

That's probably part of our problem if the truth be known. I know those guys are doing the best that they know how and I'm certainly not the one to take the reigns, but I sure wish we had someone who knew these systems better. Maybe it is a money issue; that I don't know. But I do know that we lost two brave men and they can't be replaced. Money can't buy a soul. That alone should get someone's attention.

And Shannon, I thought I told you I wasn't with the FD anymore. I left GQ about 2 1/2 years ago. To many politics, and my kids are getting older and I needed to spend more time with them.

You probably did tell me and I just forgot. Good for you on getting to spend more time with your children because good education starts in the home and not in our government funded classrooms. Sometimes it's good to re-prioritize your life and put first things first.