Windsor Public Safety P25 System

[tilt404]

For the past few days I've been tracking and logging all RID/TGID relationships in this system and I'm starting to discover that there has to be errors in the listing on RR for the Windsor Police Service Talkgroups. I don't know how these were listed and verified since they are all encrypted, so I'm not sure where the TGID group names came from?

I've found certain RID's that come back to departmental dispatches all beginning with 8xxx, and none of the dispatch TGID's listed on the page line up with them. Instead they point to 3 other TGID's for the 3 PD dispatches.

Windsor Public Safety Trunking System, Windsor, Ontario - Scanner Frequencies

It's going to take some time for me to sort through all this information I'm gathering and I never will be 100% sure since I can't hear what is being said after all. I've logged 375 unique RID's so far in this system. Keeping track of what RID connects to what TGID. In the end I hope I will have a better understanding of these relationships that will help me sort out what group description TGIDs are correct. You're probably asking why bother since no one can listen to any of this. I just like to have accurate information though so will be working on this.

[mciupa]

Originally Posted by tilt404

For the past few days I've been tracking and logging all RID/TGID relationships in this system and I'm starting to discover that there has to be errors in the listing on RR for the Windsor Police Service Talkgroups. I don't know how these were listed and verified since they are all encrypted, so I'm not sure where the TGID group names came from?

I've found certain RID's that come back to departmental dispatches all beginning with 8xxx, and none of the dispatch TGID's listed on the page line up with them. Instead they point to 3 other TGID's for the 3 PD dispatches.

Windsor Public Safety Trunking System, Windsor, Ontario - Scanner Frequencies

It's going to take some time for me to sort through all this information I'm gathering and I never will be 100% sure since I can't hear what is being said after all. I've logged 375 unique RID's so far in this system. Keeping track of what RID connects to what TGID. In the end I hope I will have a better understanding of these relationships that will help me sort out what group description TGIDs are correct. You're probably asking why bother since no one can listen to any of this. I just like to have accurate information though so will be working on this.

I for one, greatly appreciate your effort.

[tilt404]

Thank you for making the changes and updates too. I wish it wasn't so hard to sort out the encrypted ones. Never will I guess. But still just trying to sort out the plain old digital ones.

[MikeOxlong]

Originally Posted by tilt404

In the end I hope I will have a better understanding of these relationships that will help me sort out what group description TGIDs are correct. You're probably asking why bother since no one can listen to any of this. I just like to have accurate information though so will be working on this.

In this day and age of scanner appliance operators, I applaud you. You've found something interesting to you and you're investigating it.

Good luck with your quest. Logging RID's helps identify known talkgroups. Definitely worth doing.

[tilt404]

Thank you Mike, The main dispatch TGID's listed for the system never come up on the scanner. Also the main dispatch for PD, FIre and Transit all have RID's starting with 8xxx. So it helped me to find out the east and west PD dispatch is wrong on that system list here. I made a excel sheet with all 65 or so TGIDs I have on top and all 405 RIDs I found so far along the left and will plot out all of the RIDs where they intersect with the TGIDs to see patterns and even what RIDs are on the unknowns I have, which will give me clues since I will see the other places the RIDs show up. My eyes hurt and I have a headache but making progress. Can't imagine doing this in a big city though! ; )

I'll likely need a whole year though to get most of the RIDs since I know some stuff only runs seasonal. Listening to the system isn't that fun since scanners don't seem to like P25 simulcast. Sounds like people are drunk much of the time, but I put up with it just to be able to listen to Fire. Fleetnet is much easier on the ears. : )

[tilt404]

The excel thing isn't going so well. Not sure how to really start to organize all the data visually. The excel sheet will be too small/big for me to see. Will have to keep trying to wrap my head around this.

[tilt404]

After looking at my data it's odd since I don't know how those TGID's for PD got submitted, maybe something changed since then. Or maybe someone submitted it not wanting people to stick their noses into it and just say its encrypted and end of story. TGID's 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 15, 19, 21, and 25 have had no activity and are usually active TGID's, especially when two are the main dispatch TGID's. I found others in my search though and logging of RID's. I will need more time though and logging to begin to try to make sense of it all and will never be 100% sure since I can't listen to any of it, but I can follow the RIDs.

[tilt404]

Corrections and additions were submitted today and added.

[FoeHammer]

Ya there are many ids that are used rarely as well ,..I know the FD has some ENC talkgroups too
supposedly because ,....now get this ,....they sometimes need to relay apt door codes ,...
I wonder how they encrypt those codes from a guy with binoculars or any other of several methods
sounds like another excuse to be in the ' I gots secrets" club with the police ,....anyway
hopefully more will get sorted out,...

[Forts]

Good job tilt404... Like Mike said earlier it's nice to see someone dig in and actually try to figure things out instead of just asking for handouts.

I'm in the same boat with London's system... all police groups are encrypted but by watching which groups of radio ID's go where you start to get a general idea of who's who. It's a puzzle that ultimately you will likely never see the final picture, but it's still a fun challenge to try and put it together.

[tilt404]

Originally Posted by Forts

Good job tilt404... Like Mike said earlier it's nice to see someone dig in and actually try to figure things out instead of just asking for handouts.

I'm in the same boat with London's system... all police groups are encrypted but by watching which groups of radio ID's go where you start to get a general idea of who's who. It's a puzzle that ultimately you will likely never see the final picture, but it's still a fun challenge to try and put it together.

Thanks. I got the Excel file all set up now and looks amazing seeing the whole system visually with all the RID's under the TGID's. Well, most RID's, since I keep finding more each day and adding them. It helps me find out what some unknowns are since the RIDs are unique identifiers and usually they are broken up into 1xxx, 14xx, 11xx, 3xxx, ect... 8xxx also here for dispatch. Then you can see what groups together. Still can't listen but I'm a geek and I like to find out how things work. This helps me see it better in my head. At least in my own way.

[tilt404]

Originally Posted by FoeHammer

Ya there are many ids that are used rarely as well ,..I know the FD has some ENC talkgroups too
supposedly because ,....now get this ,....they sometimes need to relay apt door codes ,...
I wonder how they encrypt those codes from a guy with binoculars or any other of several methods
sounds like another excuse to be in the ' I gots secrets" club with the police ,....anyway
hopefully more will get sorted out,...

Yes, I was able to find out those FD TGID's today thanks to the chart I made of the RID's. 48 and 50. 50 is more active with FD dispatch. Fire once had Administration, Prevention and Training in the old system, so maybe these are related to some of those. Can't listen though but I'm glad tracking all these RIDs has helped me to put things in their place in a way. I'm a organization freak. lol I haven't submitted them yet though. Still very early in tracking things but glad at least I seemed to sort out some errors today in the listing here.

[DaveH]

I've done a bit of RID to TG mapping over time, nothing serious as in most
cases (my perceived) value/need for this information is low; but there are
some useful exceptions.

Pro96Com has a Radios log in CSV format which can be imported into
Excel and sorted, which should work fine. I am learning Perl, which I can't
help but think could be useful for parsing lists like these, beyond what Excel
can do easily; and other Excel features/macros can so more than sort.
I'm mostly a vanilla Excel user.

Old (Classic) UniTrunker has a User screen which shows RID against
the last used TG for that radio. I also use more modern version; certain
features/formats I like about both. This was useful to find console LIDs
for EDACS system associated with certain services which use I-calls
(heavily used by Ottawa transit).

Another example where this could be useful is the RENIR P25 system in
Quebec, which seems to be showing itself as mostly encrypted; maybe
completely, by the time the dust settles. All the activity I've seen so far
appears to be one agency (MTQ= Transport) and all ENC. The TGs fall in
the same range as those already listed. I don't know how the listed ones were
IDed.

Dave

[tilt404]

I must say I've never used Excel before this other than taking a class in school years ago. So I'm learning as I go but it seems easy for what my needs are so far. Just using it like a big chart. The RIDs are helping me a lot to sometimes instantly show me what group a unknown TGID belongs to. I found another new unknown TGID this morning and looking at the RID I instantly saw it dealt with the Fire Department. So its like a bunch of bread crumbs to me. I'm only on my second week or so of doing it but I can see how after a year covering all the seasons, it will be very helpful and uncover some secrets to me previously unknown.

I don't use unitrunker anymore since I've had trouble getting it to have a good signal between the radio and my laptop due to audio problems with my laptop. So I just use the record feature on my GRE PSR800 and it logs the TGID's/RID's. Most of the time though, other times not. So I keep an eye on the scanner too and when one comes up I enter it into Excel if I don't have it already.

I've found that the system I've talked about here is quite a mess in terms of accuracy. Its no surprise I guess since most of the critical stuff is encrypted, so how do we know what is what? So far I've been able to make a few educated guesses though based on my RID logging. Over time I think I will be able to come up with more concrete answers. For no other reason than just having accurate listing information though since in the end, we still can't listen in. Thankfully there are plenty other talkgroups on the system that aren't encrypted though.

[walruspwaterhead]

I would like to listen to Windsor police but i live in london, what do you think my chances are of picking up Windsor if i bought a roof antenna? or should I save my money?

[tilt404]

Originally Posted by walruspwaterhead

I would like to listen to Windsor police but i live in london, what do you think my chances are of picking up Windsor if i bought a roof antenna? or should I save my money?

Windsor Police is encrypted just like London. So any kind of antenna won't help you much. Nothing to hear.

[Forts]

.... And even if they were in the clear, you wouldn't get them. 200km's is asking a lot (under normal conditions) of any antenna.

[tilt404]

Originally Posted by Forts

.... And even if they were in the clear, you wouldn't get them. 200km's is asking a lot (under normal conditions) of any antenna.

I've talked to a friend in London from here on 2m (VHF) with my ham radio but we both live kind of high up in apartments and doesn't work every day. Conditions have to be good. I don't think 800Mhz would travel as well though. I've heard repeaters even more distant closer to Toronto from here but again, conditions have to be good and its mainly VHF amateur repeaters.

[tilt404]

Originally Posted by Forts

Good job tilt404... Like Mike said earlier it's nice to see someone dig in and actually try to figure things out instead of just asking for handouts.

I'm in the same boat with London's system... all police groups are encrypted but by watching which groups of radio ID's go where you start to get a general idea of who's who. It's a puzzle that ultimately you will likely never see the final picture, but it's still a fun challenge to try and put it together.

I found also that if I keep a record of the last 24 hours or even 12 then keep an eye on the news and if something big happened that made it to a police news release and says the time it happened, I can go back and see that dispatch and what TGID it fell under, therefore confirming the talkgroup. So its things like this I've been doing. I always loved this sort of investigative work.

[FoeHammer]

If you monitor OPP & Ambulance as well then that may help too ,..OPP seems to be covering more & more areas within the city these days,...I cant stand listening to transit windsor , but I used to hear alot of traffic & other calls through them to PD as well...I dont think there is a towing company the police deal with we can monitor any more either
Do you monitor detroit police? I cannot reliably understand it with my 396 , I would consider a new radio & directional antenna if I knew
It would pull in Det PD better ,but from what I hear you just have to be right in Detroit