TTC North Subway Tunnel Project/GTAA

[MikeOxlong]

These showed up in Andy's latest TAFL run:

ADD 42 173.687500 157.962500 OHL-FCC-DIBCO-North Tunnels VAUGHAN, ON 7241 JANE ST, SHAFT 2 FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.7825 79.5239
ADD 42 173.750000 158.025000 OHL-FCC-DIBCO-North Tunnels VAUGHAN, ON 7241 JANE ST, SHAFT 2 FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.7825 79.5239
ADD 42 173.812500 158.087500 OHL-FCC-DIBCO-North Tunnels VAUGHAN, ON 7241 JANE ST, SHAFT 2 FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.7825 79.5239
ADD 42 173.875000 157.150000 OHL-FCC-DIBCO-North Tunnels VAUGHAN, ON 7241 JANE ST, SHAFT 2 FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.7825 79.5239
ADD 42 173.937500 158.212500 OHL-FCC-DIBCO-North Tunnels VAUGHAN, ON 7241 JANE ST, SHAFT 2 FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.7825 79.5239
ADD 42 174.000000 158.275000 OHL-FCC-DIBCO-North Tunnels VAUGHAN, ON 7241 JANE ST, SHAFT 2 FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.7825 79.5239

OHL-FCC-DOBCP is the contractor for the project.

There's also a lot of GTAA frequencies with emission types of F1EJN and F1DDN with 8.1khz bandwidth. Probably not TRBO but I'm wondering about an NXDN based trunking system?

[exkalibur]

TTC is switching to Tetra soon - Are most of the frequencies you're seeing in the 422ish range?

[MikeOxlong]

Which frequencies? The ones posted in my message above which are all VHF?

[exkalibur]

Ah disregard...that's what you get for reading messages when you're tired. You said GTAA, I thought you said GTA.

Well with iDEN and Harmony reaching end of life (has it already been cancelled?), it wouldn't surprise me if they're looking for an alternative. Seems fitting that Trbo or Nxdn would be the solution.

[Forts]

TTC is going Tetra? Really? Didn't think that was even being used in Canada.

[mrozitis]

Originally Posted by Forts

TTC is going Tetra? Really? Didn't think that was even being used in Canada.

TTC TETRA RADIO INFRASTRUCTURE

[Forts]

Wow. Wonder what made them go that route....

[DaveH]

Originally Posted by Forts

Wow. Wonder what made them go that route....

Indeed...the nearest TETRA I'm aware of on this continent is in Mexico,
though I heard a while back (years) that RCMP had tried it out, most likely
before opting for Astro25 and now P25.

Dave

[exkalibur]

Clearly it is so the media can't listen to them. That's why any agency goes to an un-monitorable format.

There's a lot of features Tetra offers that are advantageous to transit. They had originally looked at UHF P25 as that's what Metrolinx uses. Because Tetra is huge in Europe where Transit is also much better, there are already a lot of off the shelf solutions for route management and whatever else they'd need.

Handset prices are no doubt a big thing as well - P25 costs a small fortune but Tetra can be had quite cheap.

[Tech4064]

Originally Posted by exkalibur

Clearly it is so the media can't listen to them. That's why any agency goes to an un-monitorable format.

There's a lot of features Tetra offers that are advantageous to transit. They had originally looked at UHF P25 as that's what Metrolinx uses. Because Tetra is huge in Europe where Transit is also much better, there are already a lot of off the shelf solutions for route management and whatever else they'd need.

Handset prices are no doubt a big thing as well - P25 costs a small fortune but Tetra can be had quite cheap.

The TTC's new boss is from England and TETRA is used over there so I can see a link there.

Surprised they didn't join the new Toronto P25 system or Metrolinx P25 if for nothing else interoperability, the police and fire will not be able to go to common talkgroups in the event of a major incident unless they set up some kind of patching. If they went P25 they would only have to buy the radios at the new Toronto or Metrolinx infrastructure would already be there.

The TTC does not like the not only the media and traffic reporters from listening to the current system especially in the case of problems and accidents but also employees, it's a union shop and there are some issues relating to that. Right now any employee can listen in to management and supervisors and they don't want that. TETRA offers them a secure solution at a reasonable price.

I would suspect they are the first Canadian user of the TETRA format with many more to come in North America. It's been the format in the rest of the world for many years and it is bulletproof security wise with encryption by design.

[MikeOxlong]

Originally Posted by exkalibur

Handset prices are no doubt a big thing as well - P25 costs a small fortune but Tetra can be had quite cheap.

The cheapness of Tetra handsets is usually offset by the cost of the infrastructure. In Toronto it's not as big of a hit since its easy to build lots of sites cheaply.

[DaveH]

Let's hope it's not in the 390MHz range, unlikely as that is;
I hate seeing peoples' garage doors opening and closing at random,
if at all...

Dave

[slicerwizard]

Originally Posted by MikeOxlong

These showed up in Andy's latest TAFL run:

Definitely not the same project, but I noticed these entries (because they're in my area):

ADD 42 464.637500 Strabag Inc. LOCUST HILL, ON 7990 SIDELINE 14 FB CV 11K0F1DNN 43.8994 79.1850
ADD 42 173.687500 157.962500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 1518 FINCH AVE. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8483 79.0833
ADD 42 156.625000 172.037500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 1518 FINCH AVE. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8483 79.0833
ADD 42 173.812500 158.087500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 1518 FINCH AVE. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8483 79.0833
ADD 42 174.000000 158.275000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 1518 FINCH AVE. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8483 79.0833
ADD 42 156.737500 173.925000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 1518 FINCH AVE. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8483 79.0833
ADD 42 156.687500 172.000000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 1518 FINCH AVE. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8483 79.0833
ADD 42 156.625000 172.037500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 2200 ALTONA RD. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8439 79.1508
ADD 42 174.000000 158.275000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 2200 ALTONA RD. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8439 79.1508
ADD 42 156.737500 173.925000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 2200 ALTONA RD. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8439 79.1508
ADD 42 156.687500 172.000000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 2200 ALTONA RD. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8439 79.1508
ADD 42 173.812500 158.087500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 2200 ALTONA RD. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8439 79.1508
ADD 42 173.687500 157.962500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 2200 ALTONA RD. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8439 79.1508
ADD 42 173.687500 157.962500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 3005 MARKHAM-PICKERIN FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8728 79.1769
ADD 42 156.687500 172.000000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 3005 MARKHAM-PICKERIN FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8728 79.1769
ADD 42 173.812500 158.087500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 3005 MARKHAM-PICKERIN FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8728 79.1769
ADD 42 156.625000 172.037500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 3005 MARKHAM-PICKERIN FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8728 79.1769
ADD 42 156.737500 173.925000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 3005 MARKHAM-PICKERIN FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8728 79.1769
ADD 42 174.000000 158.275000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 3005 MARKHAM-PICKERIN FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8728 79.1769
ADD 42 464.637500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING, ON 1558 FINCH EAST FB CV 11K0F1DNN 43.8483 79.0819
ADD 42 464.637500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING, ON 2200 ALTONA ROAD FB CV 11K0F1DNN 43.8422 79.1481
ADD 42 158.275000 158.275000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING, ON, 2200 ALTONA ROAD ML CV 11K0F3EJN 11K0F2DNN 43.8422 79.1481
ADD 42 158.150000 158.150000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING, ON, 2200 ALTONA ROAD ML CV 11K0F3EJN 11K0F2DNN 43.8422 79.1481
ADD 42 158.212500 158.212500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING, ON, 2200 ALTONA ROAD ML CV 11K0F3EJN 11K0F2DNN 43.8422 79.1481

Strabag is the construction company.

SEC Trunk Sewer Project

[Tech4064]

Originally Posted by slicerwizard

Definitely not the same project, but I noticed these entries (because they're in my area):

ADD 42 464.637500 Strabag Inc. LOCUST HILL, ON 7990 SIDELINE 14 FB CV 11K0F1DNN 43.8994 79.1850
ADD 42 173.687500 157.962500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 1518 FINCH AVE. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8483 79.0833
ADD 42 156.625000 172.037500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 1518 FINCH AVE. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8483 79.0833
ADD 42 173.812500 158.087500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 1518 FINCH AVE. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8483 79.0833
ADD 42 174.000000 158.275000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 1518 FINCH AVE. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8483 79.0833
ADD 42 156.737500 173.925000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 1518 FINCH AVE. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8483 79.0833
ADD 42 156.687500 172.000000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 1518 FINCH AVE. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8483 79.0833
ADD 42 156.625000 172.037500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 2200 ALTONA RD. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8439 79.1508
ADD 42 174.000000 158.275000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 2200 ALTONA RD. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8439 79.1508
ADD 42 156.737500 173.925000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 2200 ALTONA RD. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8439 79.1508
ADD 42 156.687500 172.000000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 2200 ALTONA RD. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8439 79.1508
ADD 42 173.812500 158.087500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 2200 ALTONA RD. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8439 79.1508
ADD 42 173.687500 157.962500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 2200 ALTONA RD. FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8439 79.1508
ADD 42 173.687500 157.962500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 3005 MARKHAM-PICKERIN FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8728 79.1769
ADD 42 156.687500 172.000000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 3005 MARKHAM-PICKERIN FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8728 79.1769
ADD 42 173.812500 158.087500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 3005 MARKHAM-PICKERIN FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8728 79.1769
ADD 42 156.625000 172.037500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 3005 MARKHAM-PICKERIN FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8728 79.1769
ADD 42 156.737500 173.925000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 3005 MARKHAM-PICKERIN FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8728 79.1769
ADD 42 174.000000 158.275000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING ON, 3005 MARKHAM-PICKERIN FB CV 11K0F3EJN 43.8728 79.1769
ADD 42 464.637500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING, ON 1558 FINCH EAST FB CV 11K0F1DNN 43.8483 79.0819
ADD 42 464.637500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING, ON 2200 ALTONA ROAD FB CV 11K0F1DNN 43.8422 79.1481
ADD 42 158.275000 158.275000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING, ON, 2200 ALTONA ROAD ML CV 11K0F3EJN 11K0F2DNN 43.8422 79.1481
ADD 42 158.150000 158.150000 Strabag Inc. PICKERING, ON, 2200 ALTONA ROAD ML CV 11K0F3EJN 11K0F2DNN 43.8422 79.1481
ADD 42 158.212500 158.212500 Strabag Inc. PICKERING, ON, 2200 ALTONA ROAD ML CV 11K0F3EJN 11K0F2DNN 43.8422 79.1481

Strabag is the construction company.

SEC Trunk Sewer Project

Highway 407 extension to Peterborough project maybe? those locations are exactly were they are building the new expensive toll route (ETR).

[Jay911]

Unless a north-south feeder road to Hwy 2 / Hwy 401 is being built (and demolishing a few thousand homes in the process), Finch is nowhere remotely close to the 407.

I lived in Brougham (current terminus of the 407) for 18 years ... I too know the area well. That sewer project makes a ton more sense as a reason for these frequencies. (EDIT: In fact, looking at the actual license data on Spectrum Direct, it's explicitly stated as part of the sewer project.)

What I find interesting in the above is the large amount of non-5kHz/15kHz-spaced freqs in the VHF licenses. Did I miss something, or has Canada adopted the 12.5kHz spacing the US uses in the band? Or is this a bit of inattention on some IC clerical staffer's part, a relaxation of the normal rules for this license, or something else along those lines?

[MikeOxlong]

Originally Posted by Tech4064

Highway 407 extension to Peterborough project maybe? those locations are exactly were they are building the new expensive toll route (ETR).

Andy has already said they're for a sewer project.

[DaveH]

Originally Posted by Jay911

What I find interesting in the above is the large amount of non-5kHz/15kHz-spaced freqs in the VHF licenses. Did I miss something, or has Canada adopted the 12.5kHz spacing the US uses in the band? Or is this a bit of inattention on some IC clerical staffer's part, a relaxation of the normal rules for this license, or something else along those lines?

Interesting...they seem to be on 12.5/25kHz grid as you note, and those falling on 15kHz
grid are where the two intersect e.g. 173.925 (so it's coincidental). These may be temporary
assignments. I also see frequencies close to, or on marine channels including 157.150 which is for
US Coast Guard; I don't think the location is so far inland as to preclude possible
interference.

Looking closer at TAFL records shows very low TX ERP (like -18.5dBW = 14mW)
in at least some cases (have not checked all of them); one reason I like to dump this info.
Another is -22.5dBW = 6mW. The raw TX power is ~1W so looks like some kind of
lossy antenna system (leaky coax?); or if it's underground the lower ERP is just leakage
at surface level?

Dave

[Jay911]

The stuff MikeOxlong posted in the first post of the thread is on 12.5kHz spacing too - I hadn't noticed that until now either.

[Raccon]

Originally Posted by MikeOxlong

The cheapness of Tetra handsets is usually offset by the cost of the infrastructure.

Your statement doesn't make sense, TETRA infrastructure can go from single-site to nationwide systems with thousands of base stations and dozens of switches, with huge differences in price obviously.

So which one are you basing your statement on and to what kind of P25 system (which also comes in different architectures) are you comparing it to?

[MikeOxlong]

It's my understanding that Tetra user gear is much lower powered and requires more base stations and infrastructure to support it.